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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kain Darkwind" data-source="post: 2858180" data-attributes="member: 23011">You'd be surprised then.  If you have CR 12, 13HD balors, then your PCs are true planar terrors at level 15.  If you have CR 18 great wyrms and phoenixes, and CR 17 titans and solars, then yes.  Demon Lords at CR 19-23 doesn't bother me so much.  I'm not saying that everyone has to play epic games...I'm saying the cosmos should make sense.  If Level 20 is the world shattering level you suggest it is, then by all means have the planar rulers right up there.  But that is not the world shown to me with the Monster Manual 3.5.  The world shown to me by the MM is a world where level 20 adventurers are powerful entities in their own right, but not world stomping invincible beings of godly power.  The world shown to me by the MM has a CR 20 top tier regular demon called the balor.  The world shown to me by the MM has a variety of challenges, and by no means are level 20 characters the top of the heap.  In the world shown to me by the Monster Manual, demon princes can't survive, can't make SENSE at the power level suggested by Hordes of the Abyss.  They would even have issues with the power level in the Book of Vile Darkness.  Because even if there are no advanced balors, or dragons with more HD than the great wyrms of the MM3.5, you still have issues like...8 balors.  Or in the case of Hordes, 2 balors.  If it is a stretch for the Prince of Demons to squash a balor, or even a worrisome fight, then that just doesn't make sense.  Not to me.  I don't see how one can be the almighty Prince of Demons or King of All Hell for untold eons, if there are goddess-romping archwizards who have twice the HD, or even full grown dragons who can tear a hole in your reign.</blockquote>

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