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Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 2858598" data-attributes="member: 38324"><p>It's not the "free thinking" I have a problem with. I'm fine with the idea that those demons who kill their lords become them - that's kind of a cool idea.</p><p></p><p>What I object to is trying to use that idea as a justification for making an Abyssal lord <em>less</em> powerful than the guy he used to be before his transformation.</p><p></p><p>A true free thinker wouldn't bind his awesome idea to something so nonsensical. </p><p></p><p>I'm surprised at you. You once created <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~hawk_wind/planescape/planescape.html" target="_blank">a website</a> devoted to improving fiends, so I <em>know</em> you don't like the new ultrawimpy models any more than I do. So why waste so much personal time and effort defending an idea you don't even like? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It <em>is</em> that simple. A product that's not directly compatible with the core books is less usable than one that's compatible. They could move everything up by 2 CR without hurting the Epic-is-bad crowd one bit. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Heh. We agree there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's not what's happening, though. This isn't about those of us who'd rather the demon lords were all lesser deities, or even about those of us who'd like them to be around CR 30. One subset of the D&D audience expects that a modicrum of common sense be applied in a context where it wouldn't hurt its usefulness for anyone.</p><p></p><p>Others think that's absolutely <em>outrageous</em>, and are willing to spend pages and pages telling us so, without saying why.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You haven't given any yet. What's so bad about a CR 21-26 range, going from slightly better than a balor to equivalent to a great wyrm red dragon? I think that'd be ridiculous, but at least it wouldn't blatantly contradict the <em>average</em> stats in the MM. And it'd still be appropriate for non-epic games. </p><p></p><p>Or they could have included a few demon-weakening artifacts, allowing sub-epic campaigns to confront still higher-level foes. </p><p></p><p>That's free thinking.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ripzerai, post: 2858598, member: 38324"] It's not the "free thinking" I have a problem with. I'm fine with the idea that those demons who kill their lords become them - that's kind of a cool idea. What I object to is trying to use that idea as a justification for making an Abyssal lord [i]less[/i] powerful than the guy he used to be before his transformation. A true free thinker wouldn't bind his awesome idea to something so nonsensical. I'm surprised at you. You once created [url=http://members.tripod.com/~hawk_wind/planescape/planescape.html]a website[/url] devoted to improving fiends, so I [i]know[/i] you don't like the new ultrawimpy models any more than I do. So why waste so much personal time and effort defending an idea you don't even like? It [i]is[/i] that simple. A product that's not directly compatible with the core books is less usable than one that's compatible. They could move everything up by 2 CR without hurting the Epic-is-bad crowd one bit. Heh. We agree there. That's not what's happening, though. This isn't about those of us who'd rather the demon lords were all lesser deities, or even about those of us who'd like them to be around CR 30. One subset of the D&D audience expects that a modicrum of common sense be applied in a context where it wouldn't hurt its usefulness for anyone. Others think that's absolutely [i]outrageous[/i], and are willing to spend pages and pages telling us so, without saying why. You haven't given any yet. What's so bad about a CR 21-26 range, going from slightly better than a balor to equivalent to a great wyrm red dragon? I think that'd be ridiculous, but at least it wouldn't blatantly contradict the [i]average[/i] stats in the MM. And it'd still be appropriate for non-epic games. Or they could have included a few demon-weakening artifacts, allowing sub-epic campaigns to confront still higher-level foes. That's free thinking. [/QUOTE]
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