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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 2858737" data-attributes="member: 38324">But they'd be wrong. I say that not out of arrogance, but this argument has gone on for quite some time now and no one's managed to say why it isn't nonsensical as it is.I don't have a problem with that. Even Planescape had some Abyssal layers ruled by balors, and I think characters like Red Shroud or the Marquisse of Sorrow ought to be nearly lordly in power. Some nonunique rulers might even be stronger than some unique ones. But the iconic rulers of the Abyss - Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt as the greatest three - they ought to be special.I don't remember any complaints about the Book of Vile Darkness archfiends being too strong. This is a new-coined issue, a problem created where none existed before. Nobody would mind if the demon lords were all CR 21+, and a lot of bitterness would be mollified. That's why I'm so bewildered at the intensity of the opposition here. Juiblex at CR 21? How outrageous! That would make him useless in my game!You've said a lot of stuff, but you haven't offered any reason for making them less or equal in power to balors other than "It can be rationalized, it can be scaled, I don't see what the big deal is."It's not a big deal, it can be scaled, and it can possibly even be rationalized (anything's possible). That doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that it's something that's necessary to serve the broadest possible audience. It actually unnecessarily narrows the audience.  Add four hit dice to every demon ruler and not only would the "Epic Go Home" group still be content, but a lot of other people would be happier as well.</blockquote>

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