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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kain Darkwind" data-source="post: 2858825" data-attributes="member: 23011">Gosh golly gee, you are right!  That must be why I am asking the other side to explain their position while explaining my own.  And I have yet to hear a solid reason for a base line demon lord that is under a balor's CR.  I'm beginning to think that there actually isn't one.  And I've read all the posts in the two threads on the matter, including yours.  I've heard the idea that stats higher than what is presented in FC are worthless because players can't beat them.  I've heard the idea that the entire cosmos should be reset to lower levels all around.  I've yet to hear how the current cosmos works with the current stats.  And I'd like to hear it.  Saying I won't understand is running away from the matter at hand.  Give me your explanation if it is different and better than the other ones I've heard.  If I don't agree with someone's explanation, I'll say so.  What I'm concerned about with this farce is that there has been no explanation other than the lame one of "so we could make them playable by everyone"  No one has said that the gods need to be lowered to those levels.  No one has said that great wyrms need to be lowered.  (Well, a few people did, and that's fine, but that's still a change to the cosmos for the sake of compatibility...just in the opposite direction of mine)Right.  And I heard that.  What I'm saying, is that putting a baseline that low (HD 20-27) is foolishness.  We can debate whether or not Demogorgon should be CR 30 or CR 50, but I think everyone agrees he should be significantly more powerful than a balor, no matter what, right?  And poor Jubilex should be too.It's not about making it a toolkit decision.  You can do that and still maintain cohesion throughout the material.  For instance, dragons.  Need a weak dragon?  Wyrmling.  Need a powerful one?  Adult.  Need an epic one?  Great Wyrm.  Need an even more powerful epic one?  Advancement table.The demon lords had something like that as well.  Aspects.  If you wanted a mid to high level challenge with a demon prince, you could use an aspect.  Base line were CR 9-11, if I remember correctly.  They could have presented aspects, clearly stated as such, for the CR 20-23 crowd.  The fact that they didn't implies that they do not consider demon princes more powerful than great wyrms.  Despite the flavor, despite the history, despite the common sense that says "balors < demon princes", they chose to go a different route.  A route that makes no cosmological sense.  A route which has not been adequately explained without metagame concepts by its defenders.</blockquote>

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