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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kain Darkwind" data-source="post: 2860788" data-attributes="member: 23011">Just to be perfectly clear, Dicefreaks does not have a CR 90 Demogorgon either.  The concern raised over this issue isn't about whether the fiends should be CR 25-30, or CR 30-50, or CR 50+.  All of those number spreads are beyond the 'standard game' cap of 20.  CR 25-30 are capable of being taken down through some careful planning of the PCs, perhaps a little campaign help as well.  They still fit in the 'standard' game.  The other spreads are clearly epic.  And the differences between them are one of taste.This is a concern with having demon princes on an equal or even lesser level than the demons they are supposed to rule.  The usage of these stats in a 'real game' that doesn't go to epic can be a valid concern, but at CR 25-30, the concern is no more than that of using a great wyrm dragon in such a game.  It can be done.  Not even with that much work.Putting the demon lords at CR 19-23 makes them not "challenging culminations of a 20th level campaign" but "easily won fights at 20th level"  And including an entourage is no excuse for the low levels.When you have a creature that is supposed to rule demons (forget about concerning the gods, or ruling entire layers/planes) then you should make a person believe that they can rule demons.  After all, if you have a 5th level necromancer, no one is going to believe that they can rule over an army of thousands of undead.  A 17th level lich necromancer on the other hand, could very well accomplish such a feat.  If you have a dragon terrorizing a country, it shouldn't be a CR 2 wyrmling.  Stats should reflect flavor.  And when angry balors can take you out on an 'off day', you will have problems being their ruler.That's what doesn't make sense here.  On a greater level than 'demon princes and gods clash together, and either can come out the victor'.  People can and do disagree about whether demon princes should challenge the gods.  That's where the CR 25-30 vs CR 50+ comes in.  Those are the matters of opinion.  There is no 'opinion' about demon lords that suggests they should be defeated by an angry balor, or even a irritated maralith.  There is no baseline that suggests a CR 23 demon lord makes sense, let along a CR 19.No one is mad about being allowed to advance demon lords from a certain base.  They are mad about having that base not make a single wit of sense.</blockquote>

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