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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Artoomis" data-source="post: 3001596" data-attributes="member: 111">Sorry you feel that way.  I always enjoy your point of view and usually even agree with it.  I try to ALWAYS go back and quote the actual rules, as I find that:1.  The arguments tend to be better focused that way.2.  Other folks who are reading get to see the actual rules, which helps them chime in better.and3.  Often something is overlooked in a rules debate that can be cleared up by quoting in full applicable rule(s).I fail to understand:  1.  Where is "trip attempt" a defined term?  As opposed to simply meaning an attempt to trip, which is a touch attack followed by an opposed roll (unless it's the counter-trip, of course, in which case it is an attacker's touch attack followed by an attacker's failed opposed roll followed by the defender's opposed roll).2.  How would this approach (using the touch attack roll first) lead to abuse from Improved Trip.  I don't even begin to understand that.  Am I missing something?  I don't see how it would make any difference at all one way or the other.Finally, note that when the touch attack is specifically not required is when there already is contact between the two parties, which is not the case here.  For example: Wolf:  A successful attack happens first, establishing contact between the combatants.Counter-trip (when the attacker's opposed roll fails)"  The first touch attack from the attacker established contact between the combatants.I see nothing in the case before us that is in any way a good indicator that the touch attack gets skipped.</blockquote>

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