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<blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 7356036" data-attributes="member: 6932123">For all practical purposes, 21 Str isn't any different than 20 Str, particularly since it replaces any other Str boosts (and thus you can't get 22 Str from it).&nbsp; As such, it's equivalent to getting your Str to 20. For a fighter or barbarian, you're pretty much guaranteed to have that by level 12, and are likely to have that by level 8. (Assuming the standard array for stats.)&nbsp; Therefore by level 12, this largely has no value for a heavy Str class.&nbsp; At best, if they pick it up while still at 18 Str, they might forgo the Str ASI and get a feat instead, or perhaps boost Con or Dex.&nbsp; It's nice, but not crucial.However for other classes that might want to melee, but not focus on Str — particularly gishes, but excluding rogues — this is massive no matter what level it shows up.Overall, the absolute minimum level I'd put it at is level 7 — early enough that a fighter or barbarian could choose to do something else with the level 8 ASI, while also at a level that the gishes would be really excited to have it (again, likely influencing the level 8 ASI choice).&nbsp; More likely, I'd put it at 11 (again, just before the ASI level), as the non-optimizers are much less likely to reach 20 Str before that point, and it's still a massive boost for the non-fighter/barbarian.(I'd actually probably put it in the shop when the players are level 7, but price it at level 11, in order to keep them from affording it right away, but give them more to think about with respect to how they advance their characters when such an item is a possibility.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kinematics, post: 7356036, member: 6932123"] For all practical purposes, 21 Str isn't any different than 20 Str, particularly since it replaces any other Str boosts (and thus you can't get 22 Str from it). As such, it's equivalent to getting your Str to 20. For a fighter or barbarian, you're pretty much guaranteed to have that by level 12, and are likely to have that by level 8. (Assuming the standard array for stats.) Therefore by level 12, this largely has no value for a heavy Str class. At best, if they pick it up while still at 18 Str, they might forgo the Str ASI and get a feat instead, or perhaps boost Con or Dex. It's nice, but not crucial. However for other classes that might want to melee, but not focus on Str — particularly gishes, but excluding rogues — this is [i]massive[/i] no matter what level it shows up. Overall, the absolute minimum level I'd put it at is level 7 — early enough that a fighter or barbarian could choose to do something else with the level 8 ASI, while also at a level that the gishes would be really excited to have it (again, likely influencing the level 8 ASI choice). More likely, I'd put it at 11 (again, just before the ASI level), as the non-optimizers are much less likely to reach 20 Str before that point, and it's still a massive boost for the non-fighter/barbarian. (I'd actually probably put it in the shop when the players are level 7, but price it at level 11, in order to keep them from affording it right away, but give them more to think about with respect to how they advance their characters when such an item is a possibility.) [/QUOTE]

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