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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3901619" data-attributes="member: 18280">I find this somewhat interesting, because I doubt that I would give my players the choice between the Goblin Caves and the Old Mill if only the Old Mill was playable.&nbsp; I do a lot of outlining rather than detailing prior to determining what the players are interested in, but I never use this system to deal with things within the players' immediate scope.&nbsp; If I mention goblin caves, and they are within a distance you can get to that game session, you can be certain that the goblin caves are ready for visitors.What you seem to be suggesting is that the DM needs a (more or less?) subtle way of saying he hasn't gotten stuff done, that there is only one choice for this evening's gaming.&nbsp; Not unlike saying, &quot;I bought Age of Worms and want to run it&quot;, if your group is gold with railroading, then everything is great.&nbsp; Agreed-upon rails are not a problem.&nbsp; But the rails are implied in the very set-up you describe, whether agreed upon or not.Because, what will you do if the players go to the Goblin Caves instead?&nbsp; Why isn't wiping out the goblins a quest?And that is the one thing I have yet to hear anyone answer well -- why aren't player-driven goals also quests?Under the system as described, only the DM determines what quests are.&nbsp; I hope that the expansion of this idea in the DMG will include the idea that the players can set goals, and the DM determine where they fall in the quest scale, but right now, that is not what we are seeing.&nbsp; Quest XP is story XP.&nbsp; The question becomes, who drives the story?&nbsp; Who determines what the story is?&nbsp; The players or the DM?&nbsp; Or both?If the answer is &quot;both&quot;, which is certainly my preference, then both the DM and players should be allowed to set objectives (i.e., create Quest Goals) that have the same value based on whatever criteria story XP use.And, as already mentioned, it will make a great deal of difference how good the system for determining what story awards are appropriate is.&nbsp; IME, most of these systems collapse due to lack of structure.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 3901619, member: 18280"] I find this somewhat interesting, because I doubt that I would give my players the choice between the Goblin Caves and the Old Mill if only the Old Mill was playable. I do a lot of outlining rather than detailing prior to determining what the players are interested in, but I never use this system to deal with things within the players' immediate scope. If I mention goblin caves, and they are within a distance you can get to that game session, you can be certain that the goblin caves are ready for visitors. What you seem to be suggesting is that the DM needs a (more or less?) subtle way of saying he hasn't gotten stuff done, that there is only one choice for this evening's gaming. Not unlike saying, "I bought Age of Worms and want to run it", if your group is gold with railroading, then everything is great. Agreed-upon rails are not a problem. But the rails are implied in the very set-up you describe, whether agreed upon or not. Because, what will you do if the players go to the Goblin Caves instead? Why isn't wiping out the goblins a quest? And that is the one thing I have yet to hear anyone answer well -- why aren't player-driven goals also quests? Under the system as described, only the DM determines what quests are. I hope that the expansion of this idea in the DMG will include the idea that the players can set goals, and the DM determine where they fall in the quest scale, but right now, that is not what we are seeing. Quest XP is story XP. The question becomes, who drives the story? Who determines what the story is? The players or the DM? Or both? If the answer is "both", which is certainly my preference, then both the DM and players should be allowed to set objectives (i.e., create Quest Goals) that have the same value based on whatever criteria story XP use. And, as already mentioned, it will make a great deal of difference how good the system for determining what story awards are appropriate is. IME, most of these systems collapse due to lack of structure. RC [/QUOTE]

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