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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StarFyre" data-source="post: 4108727" data-attributes="member: 26055">yuckthis gives more examples of what I see as 'artificial tactics'.When I say artificial, I mean tactics that aren't really true tactics, but abilities (that don't really  have any reason to do what they do) that force a situation that shouldn't be.FOr example, if the Warlords' powers were truly 'magical' then the 'rules' of magic (no rules really by definition, rules are done as per the individual world, game, book , etc), could indicate when the warlord attacks, magical energy comes from his brain and forces stuff to move around.   fine. he becomes a type of swordsage character WITH magical powers.THe wayit's written, it doesnt sound like magical, yet he can force people to move it sounds like?  OR stop a creature from doing something?We currently use 'of turn' movements as a house rule. the way we do it is if you delay your action to see whathappens, then every init. segment after that, i allow players to move around, shuffle, etc to give a more flowing/real life type of battle.  The warlord abilities appear to force this.   Like Joel's opinion; i have told my players, stuff like this (even in 2e or 3e where it existed) will work on humanoids and ogre sized stuff, but don't expect to hit demogorgon, or an ancient great wyrm that is 400 ft long or the dreamer (spelljammer 30 mile long monster) and stun it.  Example of real tactics that we had in the last dragonbattle I DMed...THe dragon was massive...it was in the lair...players tried researching ahead of time in the towns how to deal with it.  they got nets of dark sun giant hair (we play planescape, so almost anything can be bought in sigil..only city i allow more thna a scroll or potion to be purchased) and boulders that were reduced attached with stoneshape and some very good drawing work to explain what they doing.They entered the lair (some stuff happned here but won't bother with it).the dragon woke up..it saw them.  Now the key to a dragon..Don't let it get into the air....the dragon roared at them, and during dialogue, a player charged..the dragon charged it and used breathe as it moved forward. players dodged to the side.  outside though, players were upthe slope of the mountain..with the nets and boulders. the dragon just charged right thru the players in the cave (at it's size, sorry..u AIN'T stopping it regardless unless u got a wall of force or a cannon)...the dragon charged out, knocking 2 players down and trampling one...(i give large creatures extra abilities that make sense for them). however, outside, players dropped the net. the dragon moved partially but it got it's wing and hind leg.  the dragon ended up failing save on a bad rol of mine and fell to a lower ledge area..causing damage. the dragon started to try and rip thru it. arrows and spells came at it.fighters, and wizards started targeting explosive spells and grenade like stuff INTOthe mountain to bring part of it down on the dragon. However, the dragon used a breathe to melt thru the netting... the players engaged it. the dragon grabbed one of them and tore his body in half (we use a special critical hit chart and some 'attack types' can cause auto criticals) and tossed it at other party members....at this point, the dragon took to the air and rained some specific dragon spells down onthe party but it stayed out of range of most stuff....(Players did end up winning but won't getinto all of it).THAT is how, IMHO, you run a cinematic, tactical, beautiful combat...almost all our fights are done to this detail level. I do like many aspects of 4E, but alot of it also turns me away.  I'vegot so much house rules on the go right now, in planning stages, some done, etc to bring what we don't like up to par.I can see the warlord's powers being changed to make more 'sense' for what he is and to allow for such truly cinematic battles..not forced tactics that give the impression of cinematics.Sanjay</blockquote>

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