Designing Divine power rules for a new system; ideas?

[System Ufera]

Hello! As the title says, I'm making my own system, and while it's already able to be playtested, I don't have any concrete ideas on how to handle the mechanics for divine magic. There are, of course, a few barely-developed ideas floating around in my head which could be expanded on...

Basically, divine magic in my game's setting operates on the principle that followers of a sufficiently powerful being (most likely a deity) can pledge service to and be ritually connected to that being, who would then serve as a patron. This connection allows the follower's actions to be observed by the patron, and if the follower sufficiently pleases the patron, the follower will be rewarded by being able to call in favors. Such favors consist of the patron utilizing the connection to send aid to the follower, perhaps in the form of the patron smiting one of the followers' enemies, healing a wound on the follower or an ally, or, if the patron is too busy to provide direct help, giving the follower one of the patron's other followers as a temporary ally.

As such, the flavor of divine magic is like a less-restricting version of the Invoker class from DnD 4e, in that, while you are still your own person, your power as a divine magic user is literally your patron performing favors for you as a reward for your service to your patron.

One of the ideas I've had for how to represent this mechanically is that you have a pool of "favor points" which you can gain by pleasing your patron. A small amount of these points can be gained by doing simple things, such as donating wealth, items or services to one of the patron's temples. On the other hand, performing quests for the patron would grant much larger amounts of favor points, with the possibility of a "down payment" of favor points before the quest is even completed. Since gaining favor points would require a character to actually invest time or resources into their service (as opposed to arcane points, which regenerate over time), divine magic may end up being more powerful to compensate.

Another idea is that, when calling in the favors, since the power belongs to the patron and not the follower, the effect of the favor would not be chosen by the follower; the primary method for deciding what happens would be the GM rolling dice and consulting a table, though the GM may also fudge dice or even directly decide what happens in special situations. There would probably be different tables with different possibilities to represent what different patrons have to offer, as well.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Kingreaper]

The problem I have with this sort of system in a standard RPG is that either A) The main story feeds into what the God wants, and the divine guy will be much more powerful or B) it doesn't, and the divine guy will have to hijack the story occasionally to have any power at all.

If Favour Points are a bonus, on top of their basic abilities that serve most of the time, then that wouldn't be a major issue, because the fluctuation in power would be much smaller.

 

[System Ufera]

The problem I have with this sort of system in a standard RPG is that either A) The main story feeds into what the God wants, and the divine guy will be much more powerful or B) it doesn't, and the divine guy will have to hijack the story occasionally to have any power at all.

If Favour Points are a bonus, on top of their basic abilities that serve most of the time, then that wouldn't be a major issue, because the fluctuation in power would be much smaller.

That's a very good point... By your suggestion, are you saying divine characters should have abilities which cost no favor points in addition to more powerful abilities which do require favor points? Hm... That's a great idea mechanically, though I'd have find a way to justify it flavor-wise.

 

[Kingreaper]

I've got two ideas for that:
1) The gods aren't going to pick someone with no other skills. So, every divine character has something else eg. combat skill or arcane ability (Mystic Theurges and Paladins) but no-one with just divine power.

or

2) The gods don't want to have to get involved all the time, for everything a follower does, so they imbue some power into the divine character that doesn't require calling on them, so that they can concentrate on other things. Favour points are required for the big things, where you actually call upon the god.

 

[System Ufera]

I've got two ideas for that:
1) The gods aren't going to pick someone with no other skills. So, every divine character has something else eg. combat skill or arcane ability (Mystic Theurges and Paladins) but no-one with just divine power.

Ah, yes... Something I forgot to mention thus far is that character building is very modular, meaning that, instead of choosing one class which almost defines your character's abilities from beginning to end like in DnD 4e, you have a pool of what are called Professional Experience Points, or PXP, which can be used to buy either professions (mini-classes which don't individually define your character, but rather combine into a cohesive whole) or special abilities which you would have access to when a profession is bought. With that in mind, a character could very easily have other abilities and still have some access to divine power.

That would, however, leave out (or at least discourage) various archetypes of characters which are common in other games, but which would be conspicuously missing from my system. I'm of course talking about purely divine powered characters, such as the more priest-like variant of cleric (as opposed to the hammer-wielding, mail-wearing battle cleric). Would that be an acceptable loss?

 

[Kingreaper]

That would, however, leave out (or at least discourage) various archetypes of characters which are common in other games, but which would be conspicuously missing from my system. I'm of course talking about purely divine powered characters, such as the more priest-like variant of cleric (as opposed to the hammer-wielding, mail-wearing battle cleric). Would that be an acceptable loss?

If all divine powers require earning favour points it's not just an acceptable loss, it's pretty much mandatory.

Otherwise you've got characters who're earning their god's favour on a quest purely by asking their god to do stuff for them. Which makes you wonder what the character is actually there for.

 

[radja]

just a quick idea on how you could use favour points:
-most spells do not require you to spend favour points. To be able to cast a divine spell, you must have at least X favour points. X would be directly related to the spells level... maybe require spell level * 10. I haven't played with the numbers.
-Some spells require that your patron permanently invest some power (these are spells that cost xp and/or money, or have a costly component). When casting these spells, you have to spend Y favour points (and don't need to spend xp or a costly component). Again, I haven't played with the numbers.

The idea is that divine spells are somewhat stronger (less costs), but these spells may have the effect that until you stand in high enough favour with your patron you may not have your highest spell level available.

 

[System Ufera]

just a quick idea on how you could use favour points:
-most spells do not require you to spend favour points. To be able to cast a divine spell, you must have at least X favour points. X would be directly related to the spells level... maybe require spell level * 10. I haven't played with the numbers.
-Some spells require that your patron permanently invest some power (these are spells that cost xp and/or money, or have a costly component). When casting these spells, you have to spend Y favour points (and don't need to spend xp or a costly component). Again, I haven't played with the numbers.

The idea is that divine spells are somewhat stronger (less costs), but these spells may have the effect that until you stand in high enough favour with your patron you may not have your highest spell level available.

This gives me an idea which is similar to what you're saying... How about, based on how valuable an asset a character is to a patron, the patron would be willing to grant a certain amount of favors (bigger favors may count as more than one favor) for free? Say, for example, you get so many favors for free per day, per week, or whatever unit of time, and to gain more than that, you have to spend favor points, which would be gained as previously described. How does this sound?

 

[LostSoul]

So basically you have an NPC who does things for the PC. The PC's job is to please the NPC. The player's job is to balance their own goals with the goals of the NPC - the player's choices are about doing what the NPC wants vs. what the PC wants, finding a nice balance between the two.

I think that's an interesting model. It seems like the obvious course of play for the player is to pick an NPC with goals similar to their own. That is, the player figures out what they want to do while playing the game, select an NPC who wants similar things, and make a PC who also wants those things. Which would mean you're playing an extension of the NPC.

To make things interesting, I think you'd want a random table (or tables) - a weighted table that will provide expected results most of the time, but odd and interesting ones every now and then - that throws a wrench into the NPC - PC relationship. Something like - at the end of the day, after you've spent your "Divine Favour" points, you tally them up and make a roll on the table to see where your relationship is at now. The table would be weighted, like a bell curve, so you'd roll 3d6 or something like that; but maybe you have a special die that skews the results now and then, or if you get doubles/triples something happens - to make sure there's always a chance for a rare but interesting result.

You could also roll on the table after each favour is called for - though I think another table would be neat.

Oh yeah, modifiers for doing other stuff would be good, too. "Other stuff" meaning rites, saying your prayers, tithing, that kind of thing.

Anyway, the point there is to provide the player with a resource that they can manage, and this resource carries some risk/reward. It's always got some kind of chance to go off the rails to keep it interesting - you can never be completely "safe", but you can put the odds in your favour. So the player is thinking, "A Flame Strike spell would be nice here, but that will likely blow my relationship out of the water; so do I ask for the Flame Strike and risk the relationship damage or go with Bless and (likely!) keep my relationship okay?" Which is an interesting choice, I think.

You'd want to make sure that the "relationship issues" that crop up are of the adventuring-inducing and awesome-generating kind, instead of the opposite: "Well, sorry I can't go into the Tomb of the Unknown Lich, my guy has to sit on top of a mountain with nothing to eat but the words of my patron for a month and a day and think about what I've done. See you guys later if I survive." Something like "If you find stairs leading down, you have to take them" would be good.

Which makes me think that you want insane, "metal", gonzo patrons who do things that make little sense to us mortals. "Why do I have to turn east if given a choice?" "Because I am the Lord of the East Wind and you will obey me." Then you can create consequences that ramp up adventure and make sense in a game-play way instead of anything realistic.

 

[steenan]

Is the service pledged to a deity exclusive, or is it possible to get favors from many gods at the same time? IMO it would be fun if it was possible - as long as the character can satisfy the requirements, they can benefit from many gods' powers. After all, shouldn't a sea-travelling merchant seek favors from both Sea Goddess and God of Money?

As for the mechanical implementation, I'd aim for something simple. Stay away from long lists of divine "spells". Maybe just specify, for each god:
- Minor offering: a simple service that grants 1 faith point, at most once a day
- Major offering: a service that requires significant investment, effort and/or risk, giving 3 faith points
- Great offering: a service that involves deadly risk, extreme effort or a big personal sacrifice, giving 10 faith points
- Taboo: if violated, half of faith points are lost
- Great taboo: if violated, all faith points are lost and ritual expiation to be able to gain them again
- Minor gift: costs 1fp, or is free when you have 10 or more fp
- Major gift: available for 3fp when you have at least 10fp, or for free if you have 50+
- Great gift: available for 10fp when you have 50+ fp

Make each of these short, clear and concrete - so that they don't need much GM adjudication. For example:

God of War
minor offering: Keep your equipment clean and exercise with two different weapons.
major offering: In combat, take a wound and kill at least one opponent personally, or lose at least one man and kill at least 10 while leading a troop.
great offering: Start a military conflict between two significant forces (at least town-sized) or end such conflict through military victory.
taboo: Back away from a conflict when you can clearly win it by violent means, or kill a noncombatant.
great taboo: Run away from battle leaving allies behind.
minor offering: Ignore pain and exhaustion for a single round (reduces penalties - whatever you use in your game).
major gift: Use any weapon (including exotic weapons, siege weapons etc.) or armor as if you were fully proficient with it for a single scene/combat.
great gift: Automatically get a critical success with your attack or perfectly defend against an attack. This includes actions taken with a troop/army you command.


Prepare about 20 interesting gods and you have more interesting divine power rules in less than 10 pages than D&D has with hundreds of cleric spells.