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<blockquote data-quote="Nagol" data-source="post: 7636859" data-attributes="member: 23935">So tell me exactly where and at what velocity this particular free proton will be ten seconds from now.&nbsp; Not a probability function.&nbsp; The exact position and exact velocity.&nbsp; Something that can't be known seems pretty mysterious to me.The belt was made by dwarves who had a better grasp of magic than even the gods -- which is why Loki went to them to get the gifts in the first place.&nbsp; The belt and Sif's hair were effectively high-level engineering problems for the dwarves: tough but solvable.The magical theories can be internally consistent.&nbsp; None of the model have proven to match reality to the point of demonstrating actual effect though.&nbsp; &quot;Make the right offering and appropriate things will happen.&quot; is internally consistent, just observationally out of sync when people attempt to encourage physical manifestation by making an offering that should be 'right'.&nbsp; So people tack such pearls a 'The faerie are mischievous and wilful.&nbsp; You will get rewarded... eventually.'&nbsp; Which is still internally consistent and only fails when longitudinal studies of behaviour --&gt; consequence show no link between offering and outcomes.&nbsp; Which is a different fault of the model.There have been systems that tried to be more 'medieval' or 'numinous' as Celebrim put it.&nbsp; The tend to overcomplicate the mechanics of magic to account for large environmental effects and a wide range of outcome.&nbsp; Fantasy Wargaming is a particularly egregious example which included such things as primary and secondary ascendant astrological signs in the environment (including numerology, herbalism, animals present, theme of the environment...).&nbsp; D&amp;D has tried such things in the past to a limited extent: cf. the moons of Krynn's effect on magic.What tends to happens s just what you'd expect: players try to understand and take advantage of the levers present in the system.There have been less mechanistic systems but they tend to be more free narrative Mage: the Ascension sort of tried to cross Ars Magica with a narrative system.&nbsp; FATE, using magics as aspects, tends this way strongly.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nagol, post: 7636859, member: 23935"] So tell me exactly where and at what velocity [I]this [/I] particular free proton will be ten seconds from now. Not a probability function. The exact position and exact velocity. Something that can't be known seems pretty mysterious to me. The belt was made by dwarves who had a better grasp of magic than even the gods -- which is why Loki went to them to get the gifts in the first place. The belt and Sif's hair were effectively high-level engineering problems for the dwarves: tough but solvable. The magical theories can be internally consistent. None of the model have proven to match reality to the point of demonstrating actual effect though. "Make the right offering and appropriate things will happen." is internally consistent, just observationally out of sync when people attempt to encourage physical manifestation by making an offering that should be 'right'. So people tack such pearls a 'The faerie are mischievous and wilful. You will get rewarded... eventually.' Which is still internally consistent and only fails when longitudinal studies of behaviour --> consequence show no link between offering and outcomes. Which is a different fault of the model. There have been systems that tried to be more 'medieval' or 'numinous' as Celebrim put it. The tend to overcomplicate the mechanics of magic to account for large environmental effects and a wide range of outcome. [I]Fantasy Wargaming[/I] is a particularly egregious example which included such things as primary and secondary ascendant astrological signs in the environment (including numerology, herbalism, animals present, theme of the environment...). D&D has tried such things in the past to a limited extent: cf. the moons of Krynn's effect on magic. What tends to happens s just what you'd expect: players try to understand and take advantage of the levers present in the system. There have been less mechanistic systems but they tend to be more free narrative [I]Mage: the Ascension[/I] sort of tried to cross [I]Ars Magica[/I] with a narrative system. FATE, using magics as aspects, tends this way strongly. [/QUOTE]

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