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General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Designing holistic versus gamist magic systems?
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<blockquote data-quote="GrahamWills" data-source="post: 7637347" data-attributes="member: 75787"><p>I think this really is the heart of it; as soon as there are rules by which something can be understood, it fails the sense-of-wonder check. In fact, this has been demonstrated in the thread; those of us who have physics training see nothing numinous in the slit experiment or collapse of probabilities. It's math, it's predictable and explicable and we don't feel a sense fo the divine behind it happening. The fact that we cannot exactly tell something's position and velocity is likewise just a consequence of the known rules which we understand and use naturally. For those who have passing's acquaintance with the rules of physics, or even no knowledge of them, it's much more magical.</p><p></p><p>Magic in D&D is likewise predictable and rule-driven. It's designed that way and it's fun to play the rules to best effect. Dave has fire-resistance up, so I can throw a fireball into the pool knowing that 6d6 will average 21 points and with his 20 points of fire resistance and 80 hits, he's unlikely to take more than 10-20% of his available damage and has a 50-50 chance of being unscathed. Mechanical, rules-based, fun to work out, no sense of wonder.</p><p></p><p>Contrast that to a magic system such as a loose FATE based system. I am going to summon fire into the room. Dave has the aspect "skin of ice". What's going to happen? It's much, much less clear. A reasonable possibility is that I "create a hazard" and roll for how dangerous it is (say on the scale of -1 to +6) and then Dave tried to overcome it with endurance, tagging his skin for a +2 bonus. That might be the usual effect, but today the GM offers a compel on my aspect of "elemental summoner" and it turns out we have summoned an actual fire elemental. Or the house collapses. Or the latrines explode. Magic is much less knowable.</p><p></p><p>I run a classic deadlands campaign, and there, when a magician draws a black joker, all kinds of badness might occur. There are a fair number of player-facing rules, so most of the time the player will see two pairs, reach for 3d6 and roll damage, but occasionally he'll roll a black joker and the GM will flick to unknown pages, roll a dice and say random things to him, such as "nothing seems to happen, right now" or "the spell targets you; roll damage" or "the manitou jumps out of you and attacks your friends".</p><p></p><p>For me, a "numinous" magical feel needs to allow the GM to essentially make up random <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> and have it happen. It requires trust, but if the player knows the rules by which the magic works fully, it just won;'t have a sense of wonder.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GrahamWills, post: 7637347, member: 75787"] I think this really is the heart of it; as soon as there are rules by which something can be understood, it fails the sense-of-wonder check. In fact, this has been demonstrated in the thread; those of us who have physics training see nothing numinous in the slit experiment or collapse of probabilities. It's math, it's predictable and explicable and we don't feel a sense fo the divine behind it happening. The fact that we cannot exactly tell something's position and velocity is likewise just a consequence of the known rules which we understand and use naturally. For those who have passing's acquaintance with the rules of physics, or even no knowledge of them, it's much more magical. Magic in D&D is likewise predictable and rule-driven. It's designed that way and it's fun to play the rules to best effect. Dave has fire-resistance up, so I can throw a fireball into the pool knowing that 6d6 will average 21 points and with his 20 points of fire resistance and 80 hits, he's unlikely to take more than 10-20% of his available damage and has a 50-50 chance of being unscathed. Mechanical, rules-based, fun to work out, no sense of wonder. Contrast that to a magic system such as a loose FATE based system. I am going to summon fire into the room. Dave has the aspect "skin of ice". What's going to happen? It's much, much less clear. A reasonable possibility is that I "create a hazard" and roll for how dangerous it is (say on the scale of -1 to +6) and then Dave tried to overcome it with endurance, tagging his skin for a +2 bonus. That might be the usual effect, but today the GM offers a compel on my aspect of "elemental summoner" and it turns out we have summoned an actual fire elemental. Or the house collapses. Or the latrines explode. Magic is much less knowable. I run a classic deadlands campaign, and there, when a magician draws a black joker, all kinds of badness might occur. There are a fair number of player-facing rules, so most of the time the player will see two pairs, reach for 3d6 and roll damage, but occasionally he'll roll a black joker and the GM will flick to unknown pages, roll a dice and say random things to him, such as "nothing seems to happen, right now" or "the spell targets you; roll damage" or "the manitou jumps out of you and attacks your friends". For me, a "numinous" magical feel needs to allow the GM to essentially make up random :):):):) and have it happen. It requires trust, but if the player knows the rules by which the magic works fully, it just won;'t have a sense of wonder. [/QUOTE]
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