Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Developer Video on Druid/Paladin/Expert Feedback
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8968088" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Then why is it getting "updated"?</p><p></p><p>4e was financially successful. It got replaced.</p><p></p><p>3e <em>and</em> 3.5e were financially successful. They got replaced.</p><p></p><p>Financial success is an irrelevant standard. <em>Every</em> edition has financially succeeded. We have actual statements from former WotC employees explicitly to that effect. "Many of us think it is a great version" is subjective and squishy: How many? What proportion? Is it thoroughgoing, top-to-bottom, every-single-piece-is-perfect "great," or is it (as I'm almost certain you will agree) a hell of a lot more nuanced than that? If it <em>is</em> nuanced, what parts were good, and what parts weren't?</p><p></p><p>That last thing is where this is a criticism. 5e went overboard in a number of ways, and even its actual designers admitted this--years ago, in some cases. Mike Mearls explicitly said that he regrets how the Fighter ended up, for example. More in its thematics than mechanics, but still. The Ranger, as exemplified by this very thread, has been a Problem Point for basically the edition's entire run, and both the Sorcerer and Warlock have been highly controversial, and are the poster children for "they gave the design ONE SHOT and then eliminated it, never to see the light of play again."</p><p></p><p>It's one thing to say, "Hey, they did a good job overall." It's quite another to say, "<em>because</em> it sold well, we can be certain that everything in it was a good job." That's not true, but it is the only way in which your reply actually rebuts my central claim: a large minority of 5e's flaws can be directly traced to it throwing babies out with bathwater in its ruthless effort to be "traditional" <em>über alles</em>. (Note the quotes--many of these "traditions" only date back to 3rd edition.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8968088, member: 6790260"] Then why is it getting "updated"? 4e was financially successful. It got replaced. 3e [I]and[/I] 3.5e were financially successful. They got replaced. Financial success is an irrelevant standard. [I]Every[/I] edition has financially succeeded. We have actual statements from former WotC employees explicitly to that effect. "Many of us think it is a great version" is subjective and squishy: How many? What proportion? Is it thoroughgoing, top-to-bottom, every-single-piece-is-perfect "great," or is it (as I'm almost certain you will agree) a hell of a lot more nuanced than that? If it [I]is[/I] nuanced, what parts were good, and what parts weren't? That last thing is where this is a criticism. 5e went overboard in a number of ways, and even its actual designers admitted this--years ago, in some cases. Mike Mearls explicitly said that he regrets how the Fighter ended up, for example. More in its thematics than mechanics, but still. The Ranger, as exemplified by this very thread, has been a Problem Point for basically the edition's entire run, and both the Sorcerer and Warlock have been highly controversial, and are the poster children for "they gave the design ONE SHOT and then eliminated it, never to see the light of play again." It's one thing to say, "Hey, they did a good job overall." It's quite another to say, "[I]because[/I] it sold well, we can be certain that everything in it was a good job." That's not true, but it is the only way in which your reply actually rebuts my central claim: a large minority of 5e's flaws can be directly traced to it throwing babies out with bathwater in its ruthless effort to be "traditional" [I]über alles[/I]. (Note the quotes--many of these "traditions" only date back to 3rd edition.) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Developer Video on Druid/Paladin/Expert Feedback
Top