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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MerricB" data-source="post: 826739" data-attributes="member: 3586">Re: Mystic Theurge FactsFair enough. I'll try to point out the areas that you assume we're agreeing on but we're not. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />2) It is a band-aid solution"Band-Aid" is an emotive term; some people think the MyT is an elegant solution.Game mechanical, the MT is superior to the other. Something is wrong with that.Not necessarily true.5) Any player who wishes to multiclass into cleric and wizard more than 3 levels each is foolish not to take this class, in turn meaning that the class causes pigeon holeing. It was built to make this multiclass combination optimal and in turn it is the most powerful option available which most liekly means it becomes the only option. Only if another PrC is not built which emphasises different aspects of the Clr/Wiz progression. Certainly, the MT loses out big time on the Cleric features apart from spellcasting.Now taking these facts, and laying them out: The mystic theurge is a band-aid solution to attempt to optimize divine & arcane spell caster mutliclassing. The class even says in its own description this is what it is supposed to do. It has obvious reprecusions to game balance and does not solve the problem it sets out to. But what is the real problem?False facts lead to a false conclusion. It does solve the problem that it sets out to solve: it makes a Cleric/Wizard archetype possible without being underpowered in comparison to normal 20th level characters.However, it may cause game balance problems. I'm not sure about that, however - I haven't done the analysis yet.Multi class rules for spellcasting characters. Ask yourselves this:1) if the multiclassing rules worked, ie putting spell casters together gave you a character that was balanced in capability with non-spellcasting multiclassed characters (a problem most of us and all of the main designers see) would you need this prestige class? Would you even build it?Of course not.However, there is a reason the multi-classing system doesn't work with regard to spellcasters.Simplicity.The 3E multiclass system is one that is a great deal simpler than the previous 1E/2E system. 3E is a simple additive system for the most part - you take your capabilities, and you add them together. (There are a few oddities like turning and familiars that work strangely, but for the most part it holds together well). In 1E/2E, you had a replacive system that was hard to understand, and very dodgy in terms of game balance.In 3E, multi-classing creates a "virtual" class - even with just two classes, there are a multitude of virtual classes you can create, dependent on when you take levels in each class.Some of these classes (e.g. the Fighter/Rogue) are nearly as optimal as a pureclass character. Others (such as the Cleric/Wizard) are clearly underpowered.To make these blending of capabilities more balanced and attractive, there are two basic options under the 3E rules.* Create a new class.* Create a new prestige class.The Mystic Theurge could very easily be imagined as a single class; gaining spells from both divine and arcane spell lists. Such a class could be rigorously created from 1st to 20th level, and thus balanced.The advantage to the prestige class is that it's not as static and fixed as a base class. It allows a little more variation.Consider this: if the MT was a basic class, a MT17/Cleric 3 would not have the cleric spell levels stacking with the MT cleric spell levels without an addition to the rules. (And I think such an addition could be more disruptive than the MT is!)However, the Cleric7/Wiz3/MT10 build is a viable build; possibly not as powerful as the Clr3/Wiz7/MT10, but similar in total power. This is a variation that only the Prestige Class can add.There is a trade-off between the Prestige Class and the basic Class approach; WotC have decided that the Prestige Class is the proper approach. They may be proven wrong, but I personally think they have taken the right approach.The only change I might suggest to the MT is that at levels 6 and 7, the progression become:6th: +1 divine spellcaster level7th: +1 arcane spellcaster levelThis would stop the MT from gaining 9th level spells, and keep it at high levels consistently 4 levels behind the single class character's spellcasting capabilities.The issues with metamagic, strange counterspelling feats and other matters I do not know enough about to comment on.Cheers!</blockquote>

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