D&D 3E/3.5 Devoted Defender and 3.5e

[kreynolds]

In 3.5e, you are no longer limited to one AoO per opponent per round. If your opponent provokes multiple AoO's, you can pop him multiple times. Seems that the Defensive Strike ability of the Devoted Defender becomes much more valuable now. Question about that...

Should the ability be useable per attack made against your charge, even those individual attacks in a full-attack action? Or should it be useable only once per attack action, whether it be a single attack or a full-attack?

Another question about Harm's Way, Deflect Attack, and Defensive Strike. Say you're standing next to your charge (i.e. within 5-feet). A baddie attacks your charge. Now, the conditions have been met for all three of these abilities. So, can you...

Use Harm's Way to swap positions, next use Defensive Strike to make an AoO, then use Deflect Attack to negate the baddie's attack that is now against you (because you used Harm's Way)?

Or can you...

Use Defensive Strike to make an AoO, next use Harm's Way to swap positions, then use Deflect attack to negate the baddie's attack that is now against you (because you used Harm's Way)?

And one final question.

How many times per round can the devoted defender use Harm's Way? There is no limitation stated nor implied in the ability description, which could mean that a Devoted Defender could continuously use Harm's Way during a baddie's full-attack action, sucking up each and every attack made against his charge.

 

[psyronin]

I don't think you can combine Harm's Way with Deflect Attack. The first has to be used before the attack roll, the second after the attack roll. If you use Harm's Way, at the time of the attack roll your charge is not the target of the attack.

 

[Piratecat]

As someone running a Devoted Defender NPC, I'm eagerly awaiting more opinions on this subject.

 

[Mephistopheles]

In response to an attempted attack on your charge you could do one of the following:

1) Use Harm's Way to switch places with your charge before the attack roll is made. According to the ability as written in S&F (and there is nothing in the errata or FAQ to state it should be otherwise) there is no limit to how many times you can use Harm's Way each round. Once you've used Harm's Way this particular attack is now an attack on you, so you can't use any of the other special abilities for that attack.

2) If you didn't use Harm's Way the opponent is actually making an attack against your charge, so you can now possibly use Defensive Strike and/or Deflect Attack. If the opponent attacking your charge is adjacent to you, you can make a Defensive Strike against them limited by your normal number of AOOs per round. If the attack would hit your charge you could also use Deflect Attack to attempt to parry it.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to limit Defensive Strike to one per full attack action similar to how movement that could provoke multiple AOOs from an opponent only provokes a single AOO from that opponent.

 

[kreynolds]

The first has to be used before the attack roll...

Honestly, I don't think it does. If the baddie doesn't make an attack roll, then he hasn't made an attack. If he hasn't made an attack, you can't use Harm's Way. Besides, think about ranged attacks. Nothing is set in stone until the attack roll is made (unless you have a really strict DM). So what happens when the baddie is using a bow? He raises it to shoot your charge. You switch places. He makes his attack roll...against your charge. He was never locked into attacking you, because he hadn't made his roll.

 

[kreynolds]

1) Use Harm's Way to switch places with your charge before the attack roll is made. According to the ability as written in S&F (and there is nothing in the errata or FAQ to state it should be otherwise) there is no limit to how many times you can use Harm's Way each round.

I understand why Defensive Strike possibly _shouldn't_ be allowed to be used right before Harm's Way, but I'm honestly not seeing anything that prevents it. Perhaps the intent is that you use one or the other though, but in all honesty, I don't really see a problem with using both.

Once you've used Harm's Way this particular attack is now an attack on you, so you can't use any of the other special abilities for that attack.

Good point. I overlooked that.

2) If you didn't use Harm's Way the opponent is actually making an attack against your charge, so you can now possibly use Defensive Strike and/or Deflect Attack. If the opponent attacking your charge is adjacent to you, you can make a Defensive Strike against them limited by your normal number of AOOs per round. If the attack would hit your charge you could also use Deflect Attack to attempt to parry it.

But what about using both Defensive Strike and/or Deflect attack, then using Harm's Way if all fails?

I don't think it would be unreasonable to limit Defensive Strike to one per full attack action similar to how movement that could provoke multiple AOOs from an opponent only provokes a single AOO from that opponent.

Probably not.

Thanks!

 

[kreynolds]

As someone running a Devoted Defender NPC, I'm eagerly awaiting more opinions on this subject.

Same reasons here. One of the PCs just hired one to protect the other.

 

[two]

Honestly, I don't think it does. If the baddie doesn't make an attack roll, then he hasn't made an attack. If he hasn't made an attack, you can't use Harm's Way. Besides, think about ranged attacks. Nothing is set in stone until the attack roll is made (unless you have a really strict DM). So what happens when the baddie is using a bow? He raises it to shoot your charge. You switch places. He makes his attack roll...against your charge. He was never locked into attacking you, because he hadn't made his roll.

Don't think of it like that.

Bad Guy shoots an arrow at your charge. It's in the air. The Devoted Defender sees the arrow coming and goes "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo" and LEAPS in front of the arrow, knocking aside his charge (5').

So instead of hitting your charge, the arrow hits (possibly) the DD. Roll an attack vs. the DD's AC.

You might even argue that the DD can "switch places" vs. a spell attack. For example enemy spell caster waves hands casts Hold Person on charge. DD swaps places to take the "attack". Make save, DD. That's how we play it.

Attack is not always melee, ranged, or physical.

I'm very possibly smoking crack, however, so let me know.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Honestly, I don't think it does. If the baddie doesn't make an attack roll, then he hasn't made an attack.

The description of Harm's Way specifically states that use of the ability is declared before the attack roll on your charge is made. So either you use Harm's Way before the attack roll and it then becomes an attack on you or you don't and it remains an attack on your charge. Then the attack roll is resolved accordingly.

I understand why Defensive Strike possibly _shouldn't_ be allowed to be used right before Harm's Way, but I'm honestly not seeing anything that prevents it. Perhaps the intent is that you use one or the other though, but in all honesty, I don't really see a problem with using both.

Until they make the attack roll on your charge they haven't actually taken the action that provokes the AOO from you. If they make the attack roll and provoke the AOO it's too late to use Harm's Way.

For the ranged attack situation, I'd think of it as the attacker committing to the attack and the arrow is in flight. You then make the switch and the fact that the attack roll is resolved against you is to determine whether you dodge it or it is deflected by your armour, etc. In any case, by the time you get in the way it's too late for the attacker to redirect their attack. If it worked the way you've described in your example for the ranged attack then Harm's Way would also be useless anytime you used it when both you and your charge were adjacent to the attacker.

 

[kreynolds]

The description of Harm's Way specifically states that use of the ability is declared before the attack roll on your charge is made. So either you use Harm's Way before the attack roll and it then becomes an attack on you or you don't and it remains an attack on your charge. Then the attack roll is resolved accordingly.

Ah. I missed that too. Supports the whole "must declare action" thing.

Until they make the attack roll on your charge they haven't actually taken the action that provokes the AOO from you. If they make the attack roll and provoke the AOO it's too late to use Harm's Way.

Given the above, naturally. I'm cool with that.

For the ranged attack situation, I'd think of it as the attacker committing to the attack and the arrow is in flight.

That's really not necessary. I didn't have a problem with the concept in any way. It was just the mechanics that I was confused about, but it makes a lot more sense now.

However, I'm seeing a tremendous use for a devoted defender with deflect arrows using Harm's Way now.