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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zardnaar" data-source="post: 6739554" data-attributes="member: 6716779">This thread is about comparing Strength vs Dexterity in 5E, how they compare and the pros and cons of each. Now this will also include feats but the 1st part will briefly look at a a featless game. Just remember feats are optional. At the most basic level the pros and cons of each stat are.DexBetter ranged combatMore skills that dex applies toInitiativeBetter dexterity saves. Dex is a better save stat than strength IMHO being one of the big three.StrengthBetter Athletics ChecksBetter Strength saving throwsBetter AC without having to buff your dexterity early in the game (assuming point buy or something similar)Better damage with a two handed weapon (exception low level dual wielder is better, marginal damage bonus level 5+)Basic D&DThis assume the game odes not use feats and multiclassing may or may not be allowed. It becomes a lot harder here to make a comparison. With no feats allowed there is not much opportunity cost for not buffing your dexterity via ability score improvements (ASI's). I have played a featless game and IMHO dexterity is outright better than strength 100% of the time except maybe at the lowest levels. This can get even more pronounced if dice are rolled and an 18 dex turns into 20 dex via racial mods at level 1.  In addition to very similar damage numbers the dexterity users can often get in extra damage via surprise rounds or focus fire if enough of them win initiative. Dexterity is just better and the strength users generally have a +1 AC bonus over the dexterity based PCs. Depending on the amount of money in a campaign that might creep up to a +2 or +3 bonus but eventually you are looking at AC 20 vs AC 19 all else being equal. 5E with Feats. Things here get a lot more complicated. In theory crafting strength based melee beats dexterity based melee while dexterity based ranged attacks beat both of them.  The most DPR characters can deal are generally high level fighters using the sharpshooter+crossbow expertise combo with Sorlocks (Warlock 2/SorcererXYZ) using quickened Eldritch blasts+hex to deal uber damage. Melee based PCs using Great Weapon Master+ Polearm Master generally come in about 3rd place. The Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter feats are popular to theory craft with as one can take a -5 penalty to hit and add +10 damage. One just needs to find ways to offset that -5 penallty to hit. IN general I find PCs use.1. Aid spell. Adds 1d4 to attack rolls.2. Advantage. Generally via spells such as Faerie Fire or Greater Invisability, theory crafters like foresight at level 17+. Avenger Paladins and Barbarians can also easily get advantage via class abilities. 3. Bardic Inspiration Dice.4. Class abilities such as the archery combat style which gives +2 to hit.  GWM and SS feats generally blow the damage out in relation to every other feat.  With the right support those feats are out right overpowered if not broken. Now I do not mind if great weapons deal more damage than a sword and board fighter but it starts to get a bit absurd when one PC is hitting for say 1d8+5 or so and the other is hitting for 2d6+14 damage with an extra cleave attack as a bonus action for another 2d6+14. Around 10 average damage vs over 40.  Dex based melee tends to get it even worse as there is no equivalent feat for them to take nor do they have an equivalent feat equal to Heavy Armor Master, Polearm Master, or even Shield Master for those warrior types who are not interested in Great Weapon master.  And then there is of course the Sharpshooter+Crossbow Expert combo which involves cheesing out as many attacks as you can get and adding +10 damage to each of them in effect for a -3 penalty to hit when comapred to the great weapon masters -5 due to the archery combat style.  At this point it is all a bit of theory crafting. What some of these builds fail to take into account is that combat doesn't take place in a 10 by 10 room with low AC foes conveniently in front of you. Also those builds do not take into account that the other strength and dex based builds can also do char op on their own PCs. A sword and board PC for example might take shield master, have a higher AC (and take less damage) and hit way more often not only because they are not sucking up a -5 penalty to attack but also because they have knocked an opponent prone. If a great weapon master fighter gets the +10 damage in vs a prone opponent who should really get the credit for it. The Shield Master PC or the Great Weapon Master fighter? What about extra attacks gained via the sentinel feat perhaps which I would argue is the dex based melee PCs version of Great Weapon Fighting. One could also remain competitive in damage via an extra dice of damage perhaps from hex or hunters mark. The GWM warrior is probably busy using their bonus action to have extra attacks via cleave or polearm master. I suspect most D&D tables are also playing the game below level 10 or no more than level 12-15 so fighters with 4 attacks and great weapon masters with foresight on them may as well not exist. It takes a while to pile up all the required feats and maximising your ability scores to abuse all that stuff. Another factor to consider is opportunity cost and what actually happens in a real game of D&D as opposed to theory craft.  Now not all combat takes place in a 10'10 room. Last night my Avenger Paladin out damaged the Barbarian because we had mixed encounters at ranged. How I did it was he was holding his greatsword in hand in the wilderness while I was using a Javelin. We came across a ranged encounter. In round one I can stick up a hunters mark and throw my javeline for 2d6+5 damage, Mr Barbarian can only put away his greatsword. In round 2 I can do the same thing agian while the barbarian gets to throw his javelin for a measly 1d6+3 damage (I have the duellist style). I can add the hunters mark damage dice to ranged and melee encounters. I that Paladin can just cast bless instead on the spellcasters. I can also throw a javelin and pull out a longsword in the same round should I switch to melee. Now Looking at a similar scenario a dex based Ranger PC with dual rapiers and the TWF feat is in a similar situation. A smart ranger in the wilderness only has 1 weapon in hand as they can draw or put away a weapon twice in a round. If the encounter starts at range said ranger can put away their melee weapon, draw a longbow and stick up hunters mark in the same turn. With abilities like colossus slayer or hordebreaker at 5th level that ranger might get 3 or 4 attacks a round dual wielding. Or with a bow they get 2 attacks with damage potentially being 1d8+1d6+dex/2d8+1d6+dex vs the Barbarians 0 damage depending on the range. Barbarian might get of a single 1d6+str javelin potentially with disadvantage. And that Ranger has not even focused on ranged combat. A similar situation can happen with a PC in medium armor with 14 dexterity. 5E tends to reward versatility or defence abilities a lot more than 3E or 4E. Another 5E factor to consider is that PCs are unable to buy magic items a'la 3E and 4E. Ok they might be able to buy some but they can't rock into town and expect to be able to buy the magic weapon they want. So far in the WOtC published adventures and Quests of Doom for example magical hand crossbows and polearms are very rare to the point of not existing, magical greatwepaons are not exactly falling off trees either. Magical longswords, spears, shortswords, daggers and shields etc are more common. On paper Polearm Master and Crossbow expert are great feats but as immunity and resistance to non magical weapons become more common their DPR will drop a lot. This makes class features such as a pact blade or quarterstaff+shillelagh+polearm master potentially better options than a halberd or glaive. That simple +1 longbow starts becoming a lot nicer to have than uber damage off a hand crossbow.  In conclusion with feats stength based PCs tend to have some very powerful feats available mostly Polearm Master and Great Weapon fighting although I think Shield Master, and Heavy Armor Master are also very good as I rate defences higher in 5E. Depending on party make up though I am not convinced those feats are better than other options such as Sentinel, Alert, or Two Weapon Fighting feats. A smart dex based PC should be trying to get extra damage in via surprise rounds and versatility or winning initiative and killing opponents before they get a chance to react. Dexterity is better at range and out of combat, strength can be better in melee combat. If you are the DM and are suffering from power gamers wrecking the house using Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter feats I can recommend the following.1. Limit and/or remove from the game magical weapons. In particular magical polearms and hand crossbows can cause problems along with magical great weapons in general.2. Vary your encounters and use larger numbers of weaker NPCs. This is because of overkill damage and being able to flank PCs and give rnaged PCs disadvantage to hit can work.3. Use a variety of ranged and melee encounters. I tend to aim for 1/3rd ranged 1/3rd melee and 1/3rd a mixture. This give everyone a chance to shine.4. Put in more powerful magic weapons for weaker classes and builds. Flametongue shortwords, +2 and +3 daggers/shortswords/ javelins, spears etc. Magical shields over magical armor. Keep the power level spread out more or less. What is worse a Paladin rocking a holy avenger longsword/rapier or a power gamer with a +1 hand crossbow?5.  Allow rolled dice. Rolled stats enable some more options if you roll well. Dex builds, MAD builds and gish builds get better with higher stats relative to the default array. 6. Check dice rolls and remember that SS/GWM have a -5 penalty on attack rolls for a reason.7. Remember the rules on drawing and switching weapons. 8. Magical armor doesn't always have to be studded leather/plate or the best medium armor. +2 or +3 breastplate, half plate,  chainmail or leather can exist.</blockquote>

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