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Message: <blockquote data-quote="buzz" data-source="post: 1391696" data-attributes="member: 6777">First off, this poll is not trying to argue that FLGS contribute absolutely nothing to the hobby. It was an attempt on my part to find out if the assumption that they are the *primary* means of drawing in newbies was valid or not.Second, I, for one, would not define the hobby as including CCGs and wargames. While it's true that many RPG'ers also play these types of games (as well as German board games, CMGs, CRPGs, LARPs, and party games), it's also true that many of them don't (including myself, for the most part), and many players of these other types of games don't play pen-and-paper RPGs --something I'd wager is far more common than the reverse. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> I guess I'm not sure how giving people a place to play games that are not RPGs somehow supports the hobby of RPGs. There are probably other venues that you could argue attract "gamer types" --such as comic shops, libraries, Internet cafes, software retailers, SF/Anime conventions, etc.-- but I don't know if that means they all "support" the RPG hobby and are vital to its growth.If you're arguing that sales of CCGs and wargames help to bolster a FLGS's bottom line, allowing them to stay profitable, and thus keep RPG products in stock, I suppose I can't argue with you. Then again, the height of RPGs' popularity pre-dates the existence of CCGs, CMG's, and big-name, big-selling wargames like Warhammer. If anything, the rise of these games coincided with a marked lack of interest in RPGs.It also quite possible that a FLGS could sustain itself, as well as draw in "gamer types" by means of other products. We've all seen comic stores that also stock RPGs, and a semi-FLGS here in Illinois --Something Wicked in Evanston-- mostly focuses on horror and mystery novels and sells no minis of any sort.Not to mention, there are plenty of stores that sell wargames and CCGs but don't sell RPGs (Games Workshop stores, comic shops, most toy stores). Ergo, I don't see how the game tables at the local GW shop are going to encourage anyone to walk to the other side of the mall to visit Gamers Paradise and buy D&D books.I don't think the disappearance of FLGS's would preclude RPGs being made in printed form at all. Not having to deal with distributors would probably save most games companies money. I mean, the biggest retailer on the Web is Amazon (primarily a book store), fer gosh sakes.And there are quite a few "indie" RPGs I never see in stores that seem to be doing very good business via 'Net sales. Look at Sorcerer or The Riddle of Steel.As for the "watering hole" effect, I'm not sure. Games Plus is a great place to hang out, but it's also about 45 minutes away from me. My computer, however, is only 20 feet from my bedroom. With it, I can participate in a community (as we're doing right now) that's comprised of people all over the world, as opposed to just those who happen to live within driving distance of my FLGS (and who bother to hang out there).Again, this is not an argument that the FLGS is useless in this regard (you can take Games Plus away from me when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!); I'm just saying that the 'Net is far more useful than you're giving it credit for, and this publishing apocalypse you're envisioning simply is not going to happen. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'm not sure I understand what you've written here. Are you making a generalization that PDFs are inherrently inferior products, content-wise? Somebody might want to let Malhavoc, RPGObjects, and Expeditious Retreat know about this.No offense, but this poll isn't misrepresenting anything. I'm asking a simple question about how people were first exposed to the hobby. I don't think the point you're trying to make here has anything to do with the nature of this poll.Game stores don't seem to have changed much to me. The Gamers Paradise chain stores look no different than they did back when I was junior high, except now they sell CCGs, too. I'd be curious whether someone like thalmin could attest to whether there's any truth to your assertion. The "model" pre-dates the phenomena you're talking about, IMHO.Also, if most gamers learned to play before the CCG boom, it would seem to follow that CCGs certianly haven't helped bring in more players. As I mentioned above, the height of the CCG boom seemed to be when TSR was going bankrupt and people were leaving the hobby in droves. You could make an argument that the CCG boom did help, though, in that it gave WotC enough capital to buy TSR and then produce 3e... which seemed to bring a lot of people back to the hobby. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'll agree that the very nature of RPGs makes them often a hard sell; they require a lot of prep, a lot of players, and a signficant time investment. CRPGs, CCGs and CMGs have none of these drawbacks. I'd argue that wargames often do, however. I barely have patience to paint the few minis I use for RPGs; I can't imagine the effort invovled in painting freaking *armies* of GW figs just to play WH.Regardless, it seems like you're saying that it's our own fault that RPGs aren't pulling in new players, and I don't know if I agree with that.</blockquote>

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