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Did D&D Die with TSR?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8057920" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>YMMV. To me the single biggest fundamental change was from 1e to 2e - which means if your thesis is valid then D&D died when Gygax left.</p><p></p><p>The reason AD&D changed between 1e and 2e in fundamental ways that even the 3.5 -> 4e change didn't come close to is that the play the rules incentivised changed. In AD&D as part of the core rules you gained 1XP for every GP you obtained. This meant that the playstyle rewarded by 1e wasn't murderhoboing your way through everything because killing monsters was your main source of XP. It was loots, heisting, and robbing the monster lairs blind when they weren't home with smart play involving both lowering the risk and taking things fast because wandering monsters, far from being wandering bags of XP, were 100% of the risk of normal monsters but because they didn't carry treasure were only 20% of the XP reward and so to be avoided.</p><p></p><p>There was also a second fundamental change - 2e almost took out the early game when you brought your hirelings with you in low level dungeons. Charisma (which capped hireling numbers) was a hugely important stat and the low level wizard was effectively a platoon radio operator. Also 2e more or less took away the soft-cap on the levels when the fighters got their titles and lands and the wizards got their towers at level 9 or 10.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As opposed to tactical movement on a table with measurement in inches? Is that what you are saying changed? And don't get me started on the ridiculous AD&D fireball rules with a fixed volume so even the caster might not know where the boundaries were and that to handle fairly needed a map.</p><p></p><p>Seriously, all D&D editions use either wargame or boardgame measurements. And there's precisely one reason that 4e is the hardest version of D&D to play Theatre of the Mind - and that is forced movement meaning that the terrain and tactical positioning are just more relevant in 4e because throwing people into or off terrain (like campfires or docks/piers) is something very easy to make happen with lower opportunity cost in 4e.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Expanded - AoOs used to be for leaving combat and for spellcasting in combat. Definitely there since the start.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A definite continuation from Skills & Powers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This was something largely broken by 2e changing the fundamental nature of D&D. <em>The reason AD&D used different XP tables for different classes was class balance</em>. But balance was along an axis. Bringing class balance back was a part of resuscitating D&D.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Monster Level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Cantrip is literally a 2e spell. 0th level spells are not a fundamental change. Prestige classes were mostly new although the 1e Bard was for all practical purposes one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It hardly took away all rulings. But yes, this was a fundamental change made in 3.0/3.5 and then reverted by 4e.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>When you got 1XP for every GP you earned and smart play involved going after XP rather than levelling up by killing then wealth by level was for all practical purposes baked into the system.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem here is that you are operating under the misunderstanding that 2e was the same as 1e. It wasn't. 2e was an attempt to sell new wine in old bottles, a different fundamental game from 1e in which what you were incentivised to do was very different. But they kept most of the <em>irrelevant</em> details such as descending AC the same. Meanwhile 3.0 launched under the "back to the dungeon" tagline and attempted to bring back things that had been taken away by 2e to mixed success.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That the game has changed with every edition? Yes.</p><p></p><p>Also that the game has been a continuation of the trends of the past with every edition? Also yes.</p><p></p><p>Also that every edition is an outlier depending on what you value? Also yes.</p><p></p><p>Also that many, many people think that The D&D They Learned is the One True D&D? Once again yes.</p><p></p><p>And the thing is that <em>they are all sometimes valid</em>. But if you start saying "D&D died after my version" and your version is anything other than the brown box (or possibly the white box) you'll get told by those playing a previous edition that you're a damn kid who should get off their lawn. Not because the people who've been there longer mind kids on their lawns but because if you're running the "older is purer" your version certainly isn't.</p><p></p><p>And I am serious that the biggest fundamental change was the change in default XP rules from 1e to 2e and the next biggest was the deprecation (1e->2e) and removal (2e -> 3.0) of the hireling and domain rules. Of course the Shameless Cash Grab Edition award after all these years still belongs to AD&D 1e's deliberately being created to screw Arneson out of royalties.</p><p></p><p>There are new things under the sun but changes are both bigger and smaller than we realise.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8057920, member: 87792"] YMMV. To me the single biggest fundamental change was from 1e to 2e - which means if your thesis is valid then D&D died when Gygax left. The reason AD&D changed between 1e and 2e in fundamental ways that even the 3.5 -> 4e change didn't come close to is that the play the rules incentivised changed. In AD&D as part of the core rules you gained 1XP for every GP you obtained. This meant that the playstyle rewarded by 1e wasn't murderhoboing your way through everything because killing monsters was your main source of XP. It was loots, heisting, and robbing the monster lairs blind when they weren't home with smart play involving both lowering the risk and taking things fast because wandering monsters, far from being wandering bags of XP, were 100% of the risk of normal monsters but because they didn't carry treasure were only 20% of the XP reward and so to be avoided. There was also a second fundamental change - 2e almost took out the early game when you brought your hirelings with you in low level dungeons. Charisma (which capped hireling numbers) was a hugely important stat and the low level wizard was effectively a platoon radio operator. Also 2e more or less took away the soft-cap on the levels when the fighters got their titles and lands and the wizards got their towers at level 9 or 10. As opposed to tactical movement on a table with measurement in inches? Is that what you are saying changed? And don't get me started on the ridiculous AD&D fireball rules with a fixed volume so even the caster might not know where the boundaries were and that to handle fairly needed a map. Seriously, all D&D editions use either wargame or boardgame measurements. And there's precisely one reason that 4e is the hardest version of D&D to play Theatre of the Mind - and that is forced movement meaning that the terrain and tactical positioning are just more relevant in 4e because throwing people into or off terrain (like campfires or docks/piers) is something very easy to make happen with lower opportunity cost in 4e. Expanded - AoOs used to be for leaving combat and for spellcasting in combat. Definitely there since the start. A definite continuation from Skills & Powers. This was something largely broken by 2e changing the fundamental nature of D&D. [I]The reason AD&D used different XP tables for different classes was class balance[/I]. But balance was along an axis. Bringing class balance back was a part of resuscitating D&D. Monster Level. Cantrip is literally a 2e spell. 0th level spells are not a fundamental change. Prestige classes were mostly new although the 1e Bard was for all practical purposes one. It hardly took away all rulings. But yes, this was a fundamental change made in 3.0/3.5 and then reverted by 4e. When you got 1XP for every GP you earned and smart play involved going after XP rather than levelling up by killing then wealth by level was for all practical purposes baked into the system. The problem here is that you are operating under the misunderstanding that 2e was the same as 1e. It wasn't. 2e was an attempt to sell new wine in old bottles, a different fundamental game from 1e in which what you were incentivised to do was very different. But they kept most of the [I]irrelevant[/I] details such as descending AC the same. Meanwhile 3.0 launched under the "back to the dungeon" tagline and attempted to bring back things that had been taken away by 2e to mixed success. That the game has changed with every edition? Yes. Also that the game has been a continuation of the trends of the past with every edition? Also yes. Also that every edition is an outlier depending on what you value? Also yes. Also that many, many people think that The D&D They Learned is the One True D&D? Once again yes. And the thing is that [I]they are all sometimes valid[/I]. But if you start saying "D&D died after my version" and your version is anything other than the brown box (or possibly the white box) you'll get told by those playing a previous edition that you're a damn kid who should get off their lawn. Not because the people who've been there longer mind kids on their lawns but because if you're running the "older is purer" your version certainly isn't. And I am serious that the biggest fundamental change was the change in default XP rules from 1e to 2e and the next biggest was the deprecation (1e->2e) and removal (2e -> 3.0) of the hireling and domain rules. Of course the Shameless Cash Grab Edition award after all these years still belongs to AD&D 1e's deliberately being created to screw Arneson out of royalties. There are new things under the sun but changes are both bigger and smaller than we realise. [/QUOTE]
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