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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 9536671" data-attributes="member: 6799660">As others have said, rather than actual math complexity it is mostly going to be math fiddliness (remembering if the -2 on the WvsAC table is to AC or the attack roll, multiply damage by 150% before or after applying damage resistance) or trivial-but-constant/massively-multiple (a dozen+ calculations, each individually easy, in the making of a character). Beyond that:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I think there's a cubed-root in GURPS 3e: Vehicles Expansion (for extending a chart past the largest size vehicle they thought would normally occur). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Traveller includes a linear-algebra formula for time to reach a distant object if you accelerate halfway then turn around and decelerate (at non-relativistic speeds). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">IIRC, Aftermath includes the derivative calculus formula for grenade explosion damage at a given radius, but also includes a chart.</li> </ul>None of the above really show up in play*, and are more there just to show how other game numbers were derived. *the Traveller one might, but usually you would be approaching an object within a solar system, so the orbital mechanics of you and your target would come into play That's really where things do get painful. And systems where derived stats or formulaic outcomes happen mid-resolution are where actual frustration kicks in. I know D&D 3e got a lot of slack for anti-magic  and ability damage/drain requiring derived stat (including multiple differently affected ACs) recalculation in-combat and in Champions/Hero System having Boost and Drain powers which altered the point value of powers (requiring re-calculation) from turn to turn. Obviously neither game is unplayable, but those situations coming up are often met with groans. More often, there is fiddly math that isn't awful, it just feels cumbersome, and sometimes pointless. A poster child might be, well, encumbrance. Lots of game rules included it, but few actually had the same setup as gp=xp era D&D where there was a tangible reward for the meticulous number tracking. The other is point-buy character creation (particularly large-number, high-granularity systems like GURPS and Champion/Hero). There, the numbers are thankfully only utilized in character creation/advancement*. However, the points are a created economy of character options more than a measure of something like character effectiveness**. So it can, like the encumbrance example, seem like a whole lot of focus on numbers that don't necessarily serve a larger purpose.*Staffan's sci-fi damage complexity is a separate instance in the same game.**Perhaps hindered by them generally also showing up in generic/multi-genre systems, where effectiveness or other metrics will be highly variable across play patterns.And that, I think, is really what happened with complex games more than anything. A bunch were built with a bunch of opportunity to use numbers and not enough emphasis on making them matter to the play loop envisioned. GURPS (and generally Champions/Hero) are both great for groups that will work hard to make them work. Even then, I know a lot more people who enjoy reading the books, building characters on spec, and generally thinking about gaming than enjoy playing the game in many many settings. Notably the ones like Staffans with in-game recalculation often didn't last, in my experience. But also just ones with a lot of the purported complexity in actual use (say, cyberpunk netrunning). For my groups, it was situations like fantasy that lasted, and I don't feel that GURPS is actually much more complex (outside of Excel sheet character creation) in play than something like D&D.</blockquote>

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