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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Perram" data-source="post: 5265794" data-attributes="member: 84740">Well, based on both the experiences of my game store and the sales at my FLGS, I have to say you are wrong Umbran.  The majority of the gaming groups in my area switched to 4e when it came out.  The major and active groups pre-ordered the core books and all the products coming out.  They were EXCITED to have a new edition of the game.  We sold a TON of it at launch.  I bought a ton of it myself!  We gave 4e its chance.  We bought it and we played it.  Myself I purchased every single book for 4e all the way up to the DMG II.  I had a DDI subscription to boot!But we didn't love it.With the Pathfinder Beta having come out right around the launch of 4e, it HAS been in competition with 4e since the start.  While the final release of pathfinder only happened a year later, there have been QUALITY products on the shelf with the Pathfinder brand on them for months BEFORE 4e's launch.Leading up to Pathfinder, we took notice!  Several game groups in my area did.  We played the Beta for awhile as sort of a testing the waters situation, we read the adventures and adventure path material...Golarion was one of the BEST game worlds we've seen in a long while!  Especially compared to the '2 books and forget it' format for the 4e game worlds.And slowly, nearly all of the 4e game groups in my area became Pathfinder game groups.People traded in their 4e collections in droves at my store.  For a period of time we had to STOP taking the trades, because we were getting flooded with stock and no one was buying it!As of right now, Pathfinder rule books out sell 4e rulebooks on the shelf.  Our Pre-Owned 3.5 / 3e era books out sell the 4e supplements easily.Of the 6 most active 4e game groups I know of in the area that, only 2 of them still play 4e (And one of those have recently purchased Pathfinder rulebooks in strong numbers...).  3 of us have switched to Pathfinder entirely, and 1 plays star wars.Yes, this in all anecdotal evidence.  But it shows that there certainly are areas where Pathfinder and 4e compete.  I'm certain the numbers balance differently in different areas, where 4e is dominate.And even MORE importantly to existing customers.  Because the active groups in our area are playing PATHFINDER now, the new players that are just now getting into Role Playing... are being absorbed into the Pathfinder groups.THAT is undeniably a lost 4e sale there.  They haven't formed any opinion on game system yet, and they will play whatever the group they get invited to plays.  And right now they are joining Pathfinder groups.Gamers do not have infinite money or more importantly infinite time.  I wish we did!  Supporting and playing multiple systems in the /SAME/ genre is a lot harder to justify than, say, playing two completely different games.So in short:  Yes, Pathfinder and 4e DO compete.  I do not think it is the next Blood War, but gaming dollars are being spent on Paizo Products that are not being spent on WotC products.</blockquote>

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