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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Different Damage Die Sizes for Weaponry
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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8309072" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>So one of the rules when playing a game is to try to make things that take a bit of extra time matter.</p><p></p><p>The time it takes for the "main game loop" to run has pretty significant impact on how the game plays. While it doesn't take <strong>that much</strong> time to add up 1d6 and 1d4, every extra bit of work to run the "main game loop" adds up, so you should seek to shave stuff off that aren't needed.</p><p></p><p>2d6 on a greatsword is already going to "cost" a bit more than 1d12; here, we add in the asymmetry, which in practice will slow things down a tad more.</p><p></p><p>And the benefit isn't that large. 1d10 has a variance of 99/12, 1d4 15/12, 1d6 35/12. So 1d4+1d6 has a variance of 50/12, close to 1d8's 63/12. This is basically 1d8+1.5 in how it would play.</p><p></p><p>So a simpler, faster version would be to make the weapon 1d8+1 or +2, which would be a touch faster; but even there we run into problems; does the +1 crit?</p><p></p><p>In 4e one weapon property was Brutal. A brutal 2 weapon couldn't roll a 2 or under on the die; you'd just reroll it. And 1d8+2 is the same curve as 1d10B2. That would do away with the cost of dealing with static bonuses on weapons. 1d10B1 has a variance of 80/12 and the same average as 1d4+1d6, and probably evaluates faster (even with the reroll costs).</p><p></p><p>...</p><p></p><p>Backing up, we should aim for quirky features of weapons to <strong>matter</strong> as much as possible. The overhead to think about the quirky feature slows the game down (not only in having to think about it, but dealing with forgetting about it). How it matters could be "fun" or mechanics based.</p><p></p><p>And I don't see either fun nor a significant mechanical impact of rolling 1d4+1d6 here.</p><p></p><p>In 4e, the Brutal property mattered because you could end up rolling a <strong>lot</strong> of damage dice -- one power might deal 7[W]. And high level characters could attack 14 times in a single round (using certain encounter powers etc). Even then, one of the ways higher level 4e falls down is that you can end up stacking far too many tiny benefits that evaluation of what happens ends up taking too long. The in fiction impact of "reroll 1s and 2s" is relatively static from level 1 to max level; a level-appropriate foe takes a bit more damage from your attacks; but the cost -- the number of times you roll 1s and 2s -- goes up. And similar for a bunch of other mechanics.</p><p> </p><p>That led to higher level 4e bogging down with slower combat rounds.</p><p></p><p>The "silver standard" of the game loop is "roll attack, add the same modifier as last turn, on a hit roll weapon damage plus a modifier that doesn't change". Be reluctant to make that less efficient.</p><p></p><p>5e's "you get more attacks" ends up being costly here. A 5th level fighter is <strong>half as time efficient</strong> dealing level-appropriate damage than a 1st level fighter is. At 11th level they are 1/3 as efficient. The Paladin with his built-in 1d8 ends up being about 40% as efficient as a level 1 Paladin at level 11, as "add 1d8 to all attacks" doesn't boost the cost of evaluating the action by 50%, like an extra attack does. (Ok; most high level PCs accelerate multi-attack by rolling them all at once, so it isn't actually 3x slowdown).</p><p></p><p>While replacing 1d10 with 1d6+1d4 isn't as "bad" as the paladin's +1d8, the +1d8 has a <strong>larger narrative impact</strong>. It adds radiant damage (which can be important), and it boosts a 1d8+8 (12.5) attack damage up by 36% (larger than the 1d6+1d4 swap) for roughly the same cost.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8309072, member: 72555"] So one of the rules when playing a game is to try to make things that take a bit of extra time matter. The time it takes for the "main game loop" to run has pretty significant impact on how the game plays. While it doesn't take [b]that much[/b] time to add up 1d6 and 1d4, every extra bit of work to run the "main game loop" adds up, so you should seek to shave stuff off that aren't needed. 2d6 on a greatsword is already going to "cost" a bit more than 1d12; here, we add in the asymmetry, which in practice will slow things down a tad more. And the benefit isn't that large. 1d10 has a variance of 99/12, 1d4 15/12, 1d6 35/12. So 1d4+1d6 has a variance of 50/12, close to 1d8's 63/12. This is basically 1d8+1.5 in how it would play. So a simpler, faster version would be to make the weapon 1d8+1 or +2, which would be a touch faster; but even there we run into problems; does the +1 crit? In 4e one weapon property was Brutal. A brutal 2 weapon couldn't roll a 2 or under on the die; you'd just reroll it. And 1d8+2 is the same curve as 1d10B2. That would do away with the cost of dealing with static bonuses on weapons. 1d10B1 has a variance of 80/12 and the same average as 1d4+1d6, and probably evaluates faster (even with the reroll costs). ... Backing up, we should aim for quirky features of weapons to [b]matter[/b] as much as possible. The overhead to think about the quirky feature slows the game down (not only in having to think about it, but dealing with forgetting about it). How it matters could be "fun" or mechanics based. And I don't see either fun nor a significant mechanical impact of rolling 1d4+1d6 here. In 4e, the Brutal property mattered because you could end up rolling a [b]lot[/b] of damage dice -- one power might deal 7[W]. And high level characters could attack 14 times in a single round (using certain encounter powers etc). Even then, one of the ways higher level 4e falls down is that you can end up stacking far too many tiny benefits that evaluation of what happens ends up taking too long. The in fiction impact of "reroll 1s and 2s" is relatively static from level 1 to max level; a level-appropriate foe takes a bit more damage from your attacks; but the cost -- the number of times you roll 1s and 2s -- goes up. And similar for a bunch of other mechanics. That led to higher level 4e bogging down with slower combat rounds. The "silver standard" of the game loop is "roll attack, add the same modifier as last turn, on a hit roll weapon damage plus a modifier that doesn't change". Be reluctant to make that less efficient. 5e's "you get more attacks" ends up being costly here. A 5th level fighter is [b]half as time efficient[/b] dealing level-appropriate damage than a 1st level fighter is. At 11th level they are 1/3 as efficient. The Paladin with his built-in 1d8 ends up being about 40% as efficient as a level 1 Paladin at level 11, as "add 1d8 to all attacks" doesn't boost the cost of evaluating the action by 50%, like an extra attack does. (Ok; most high level PCs accelerate multi-attack by rolling them all at once, so it isn't actually 3x slowdown). While replacing 1d10 with 1d6+1d4 isn't as "bad" as the paladin's +1d8, the +1d8 has a [b]larger narrative impact[/b]. It adds radiant damage (which can be important), and it boosts a 1d8+8 (12.5) attack damage up by 36% (larger than the 1d6+1d4 swap) for roughly the same cost. [/QUOTE]
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