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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 9597411" data-attributes="member: 177">So, is it the fault of the ice cream if someone who is lactose intolerant eats it?Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the players to choose games that work for them, and to do their best to be good people to play with, and to choose not to play with each other if they really are incompatible.&nbsp; Well, you raise a major point here - the situation Wil was in was not a normal play experience.&nbsp; It was a performance.&nbsp; You are supposed to be prepared before you begin a performance.&nbsp; And if he was approaching Fate looking for a Trad experience, the people he was working with had not prepared him properly for performance.&nbsp; Putting him in that position was unfair to him, and should not be expected to produce the game's nominal play experience.There is no RPG that one can expect a brand-new player to perform first time out as well as one who has developed system mastery.&nbsp; If Wil hadn't ever played D&amp;D, and was tossed in playing 3e with D&amp;D designers, there's no reason to think the result would have been any better a performance.Going back to this - perfection is not required, and one bad example is not evidence that it is.Not all games are for all people.&nbsp; Nor is any game going to be at its best when you are not experienced with it - even &quot;perfect players&quot; (whatever that means) need experience with a system to fully understand how it operates, and how to find the fun in it.Heck, the first time I tried to run D&amp;D was an abject failure.&nbsp; I was like 12 years old, I'd played Tunnels and Trolls quite a bit with my eldest brother running the game, and then played D&amp;D a few times with him as DM when he came home for a Christmas break.&nbsp; He went back to college, and I poured over the books, and then tried to pick up the game where he'd left off. Unfortunately, I didn't have a DM's screen yet.&nbsp; And, in the moment, with my friends all looking at me to continue the adventure we'd been playing... I just could not find the to-hit tables in the DMG.&nbsp; Not for the life of me.&nbsp; I got completely flustered, flipping all over though the book.&nbsp; I think I almost cried, and we just had to stop.A little time, a little more preparation, and the next try we got through it.&nbsp; We were 12 - not a one of us a &quot;perfect player&quot;, and I still made errors.&nbsp; We all did.&nbsp; And no, what we produced wasn't suitable as a performance to please an audience, but we had a good time.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 9597411, member: 177"] So, is it the fault of the ice cream if someone who is lactose intolerant eats it? Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the players to choose games that work for them, and to do their best to be good people to play with, and to choose not to play with each other if they really are incompatible. Well, you raise a major point here - the situation Wil was in was not a normal play experience. It was a [I]performance[/I]. You are supposed to be [I]prepared[/I] before you begin a performance. And if he was approaching Fate looking for a Trad experience, the people he was working with had not prepared him properly for performance. Putting him in that position was unfair to him, and should not be expected to produce the game's nominal play experience. There is no RPG that one can expect a brand-new player to perform first time out as well as one who has developed system mastery. If Wil hadn't ever played D&D, and was tossed in playing 3e with D&D designers, there's no reason to think the result would have been any better a performance. Going back to this - perfection is not required, and one bad example is not evidence that it is. Not all games are for all people. Nor is any game going to be at its best when you are not experienced with it - even "perfect players" (whatever that means) need experience with a system to fully understand how it operates, and how to find the fun in it. Heck, the first time I tried to run D&D was an [I]abject failure[/I]. I was like 12 years old, I'd played [I]Tunnels and Trolls[/I] quite a bit with my eldest brother running the game, and then played D&D a few times with him as DM when he came home for a Christmas break. He went back to college, and I poured over the books, and then tried to pick up the game where he'd left off. Unfortunately, I didn't have a DM's screen yet. And, in the moment, with my friends all looking at me to continue the adventure we'd been playing... I just [I]could not find[/I] the to-hit tables in the DMG. Not for the life of me. I got completely flustered, flipping all over though the book. I think I almost cried, and we just had to stop. A little time, a little more preparation, and the next try we got through it. We were 12 - not a one of us a "perfect player", and I still made errors. We all did. And no, what we produced wasn't suitable as a performance to please an audience, but we had a good time. [/QUOTE]

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