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<blockquote data-quote="Thomas Shey" data-source="post: 9597812" data-attributes="member: 7026617">Possibly because I'm talking about two different things:1. Games that can contribute to social problems in groups, not because they're misdesigned but because they contain design elements which are not obvious out the gate, and thus are to walk into; and2. Games that seem to have fundamental design element problems that can be worked around, but if not will definitely cause both intrinsic problems and make certain social issues worse.The first is not a flawed design, but may well be a flawed presentation if the designer doesn't consider some of the potential knock-on effects of some of his design elements and make them very clear.&nbsp; Because not everyone is good at seeing the implications of mechanics until they're in play.&nbsp; Both, however, are cases where the game system can very much create additional problems in some groups beyond what they routinely have, so I don't think letting game systems off the hook here is warranted.Problematic is a word doing heavy lifting here.&nbsp; Does it present elements that made his problems worse?&nbsp; I'd have to assume so if there's a difference.&nbsp; Does it bring those elements to the attention of the GM and users to prepare for it?&nbsp; I'm not qualified to say not being a 5e player or GM.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Thomas Shey, post: 9597812, member: 7026617"] Possibly because I'm talking about two different things: 1. Games that can contribute to social problems in groups, not because they're misdesigned but because they contain design elements which are not obvious out the gate, and thus are to walk into; and 2. Games that seem to have fundamental design element problems that can be worked around, but if not will definitely cause both intrinsic problems and make certain social issues worse. The first is not a flawed design, but may well be a flawed presentation if the designer doesn't consider some of the potential knock-on effects of some of his design elements and make them very clear. Because not everyone is good at seeing the implications of mechanics until they're in play. Both, however, are cases where the game system can very much create additional problems in some groups beyond what they routinely have, so I don't think letting game systems off the hook here is warranted. Problematic is a word doing heavy lifting here. Does it present elements that made his problems worse? I'd have to assume so if there's a difference. Does it bring those elements to the attention of the GM and users to prepare for it? I'm not qualified to say not being a 5e player or GM. [/QUOTE]

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