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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 9600801" data-attributes="member: 4937">On the subject of rules lawyering, I don't object to a player raising a rules issue at the table.&nbsp; For one thing, sometimes I'm misremembering or misapplying the rules, and a clarification is welcome.&nbsp; If I have a player at the table with a head for the rules, even though to a large extent at my tables &quot;the rules&quot; are &quot;my house rules&quot;, then I find that a good thing and am happy to have someone assisting me at the table.The problem with rules lawyering isn't &quot;caring about the rules&quot; per se.&nbsp; The problem is with a player that only raises rules objections when he feels the ruling isn't favorable.&nbsp; You can tell the good ones because they are like, &quot;I hate to bring this up, but by the rules shouldn't I be drawing an attack of opportunity here?&quot; or something of that sort where they bring up rules that negatively impact their situation as much as ones that help them.The problem with rules lawyering is that it's attempting to &quot;win&quot; the game in the meta of the game.&nbsp; The problem with it is it's a variation of GM wheedling where you attempt to alter or influence the referees decisions in your favor through some sort of social coercion browbeating, bullying, flirting, whatever.&nbsp; The problem is that the player makes the game about themselves and what they want and then uses a totally dysfunctional method to try to achieve that.&nbsp; Or to put it very briefly, the problem isn't that they care about the rules; the problem is that they argue about the rules.&nbsp; Like, fine, help me out as a referee by bringing up the rules.&nbsp; I am happy to admit when I got it wrong and try to address it if you bring it up at that moment during play and then don't argue about it much if I don't agree.&nbsp; What you don't do is waste 30 minutes everyone's time arguing emotionally about a point of play 10 minutes after it happened whether or not I got it right then, demanding a retcon, and a replay purely because you aren't getting &quot;your way&quot; as you perceive it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 9600801, member: 4937"] On the subject of rules lawyering, I don't object to a player raising a rules issue at the table. For one thing, sometimes I'm misremembering or misapplying the rules, and a clarification is welcome. If I have a player at the table with a head for the rules, even though to a large extent at my tables "the rules" are "my house rules", then I find that a good thing and am happy to have someone assisting me at the table. The problem with rules lawyering isn't "caring about the rules" per se. The problem is with a player that only raises rules objections when he feels the ruling isn't favorable. You can tell the good ones because they are like, "I hate to bring this up, but by the rules shouldn't I be drawing an attack of opportunity here?" or something of that sort where they bring up rules that negatively impact their situation as much as ones that help them. The problem with rules lawyering is that it's attempting to "win" the game in the meta of the game. The problem with it is it's a variation of GM wheedling where you attempt to alter or influence the referees decisions in your favor through some sort of social coercion browbeating, bullying, flirting, whatever. The problem is that the player makes the game about themselves and what they want and then uses a totally dysfunctional method to try to achieve that. Or to put it very briefly, the problem isn't that they care about the rules; the problem is that they argue about the rules. Like, fine, help me out as a referee by bringing up the rules. I am happy to admit when I got it wrong and try to address it if you bring it up at that moment during play and then don't argue about it much if I don't agree. What you don't do is waste 30 minutes everyone's time arguing emotionally about a point of play 10 minutes after it happened whether or not I got it right then, demanding a retcon, and a replay purely because you aren't getting "your way" as you perceive it. [/QUOTE]

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