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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DammitVictor" data-source="post: 7944964" data-attributes="member: 6750908">So... for a little bit of background, my favorite version of D&D-- OF ALL TIME-- is AD&D Second Edition Player's Option, including Skills & Powers, Spells & Magic, Combat & Tactics, and High Level Campaigns. This is the last version of D&D published by TSR, and the last version of D&D that could-- arguably-- be said to belong to the OSR; it contains a lot of the changes that would later become the foundations of Third Edition.I've seen a lot of petty arguments about where the line between Old School and Modern should be drawn-- before 3.0? before Player's Option? before Second Edition? Between O- and AD&D, even? (I haven't heard that one before, but I know some people prefer OD&D.)In the interests of refining this discussion-- since it'll never be fully resolved-- and my nakedly commercial interests in appealing to the OSR community, I decided to try starting a discussion of which features of these games make them Old School or New School, and which features of New School games would be considered acceptable parts of an OSR game. I am not really interested in discussing aesthetics or playstyles here, because most of these games are mostly interchangeable with small adjustments-- and because the aesthetics and playstyles of old school D&D varied wildly.So, without further ado...[HR][/HR]These are the (non-comprehensive) traits that I generally see as differentiating OSR/TSR D&D from modern D&D:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Individual mechanics for unrelated tasks. (Initiative, surprise, NWP vs Thief skills)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Emphasis on randomized character generation.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Five Saving Throw categories (Rod/Staff/Wand, Petrification/Polymorph, Spell, Poison/Death, Breath Weapon)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Saving Throw DCs decrease as PC gains levels, and rarely vary based on the attack. Saving Throw progression varies by class group.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Descending AC and THAC0. (My impression is that most OSR games have abandoned this.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Race and Class combinations are limited. (Includes Old/Classic race-as-class.) Nonhuman races have level limits.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Characters (mostly) retain the same class/classes for their entire careers. (Exceptions: dual-classing, 1e Bard, Classic humanoid spellcasters.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">XP Progression varies by class.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Multiclass characters advance by automatically/deliberately investing XP into different classes. (Includes OA Ninja and Classic humanoid spellcasters.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lower Hit Point totals: smaller CON bonuses, smaller Hit Dice, HD progression (mostly) stops at 9th.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Emphasis on domain-level play after 9th, divine ascension after 30th in Classic.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Extremely limited non-magical healing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Combat attacks other than basic melee attacks use up ammunition or spell slots.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ability scores are (mostly) fixed at 1st level.</li> </ul>EDIT: Courtesy of [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Casting spells in combat took time, during which they could be interrupted. Taking damage during casting always ruined the spell.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Preparing spells took much more time, and a high-level spellcaster who had cast everything might take days recovering.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic items were vulnerable to area attacks and could easily be destroyed.</li> </ul>And these are the corresponding traits in modern D&D:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Unified resolution mechanics. (d20 + bonuses versus DC)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Emphasis on deterministic character generation.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Saving Throws:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3.X: Three Saving Throw categories (Fort/Ref/Will). Tied to specific ability scores, and scales by class/level. (Good/Poor progression.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4e: Three passive Defenses (again Fort/Ref/Will) with variable ability score associations. Flat scaling with flat class bonuses.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e: Six Saving Throws based on Ability Scores, tied to Proficiency Bonus. Non-proficient Saves do not improve.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Saving Throw bonuses and Saving Throw DCs both (generally) increase with level.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ascending Base Attack/Proficiency Bonus versus ascending Armor Class and Defenses.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Any Race is allowed to advance in (mostly) any Class. (Exceptions: racial PrCs and archetypes in Pathfinder.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Multiclassing:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3.X/5e: You pick a class at each level. In 5e, this is an optional rule and is limited by your ability scores.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4e: Standard multiclassing allows you to spend 1 feat to swap out 1 class power, multiple times. Hybrid multiclassing allows you to gain some of the class features of two classes and split your power selections between them.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Higher Hit Point totals: Larger CON bonuses, larger Hit Dice, HD progression continues to max level. Monsters have much higher HP totals.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No intentional shift in endgame.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Much more non-magical healing:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4e: Healing surges and Second Wind.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e: Hit Dice.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">More options for at-will ranged attacks, depending on class.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ability scores increase as PCs gain in level.</li> </ul>EDIT:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spellcasting is instantaneous, but provokes an Attack of Opportunity. Spellcasters can make a Concentration check to negate the AoO, or to complete the spell even if they are damaged.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Preparing or readying spells takes an hour or less regardless of the quantity or level of spells.</li> </ul>And then there are the following unique mechanics that are present in modern D&D that may be of interest:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3.X/4e: Prestige Classes and/or Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4e: Class-specific At-Will and Encounter attacks. (I know this one's controversial, but the execution isn't the concept.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4e/5e: Ritual Magic-- replacing spell slots with time and money for certain spells.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3.X/5e: Archetypes/Subclasses. Similar to AD&D 2e Kits, but usually much more substantial.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e: Advantage/Disadvantage.</li> </ul>[HR][/HR]So... that's about as much as I could think of that differentiates OSR/TSR D&D from WotC/Paizo D&D. What other points am I missing?And then... which features of Modern D&D would you consider acceptable in a game that otherwise looks and acts like an OSR game?My own opinions to follow.</blockquote>

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