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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9858212" data-attributes="member: 42582">Which systems are these? I've not encountered a system like this.At least in 4e D&D, the point of both scaling DCs and levels is to structure the way the game progresses through the fiction. So scaling DCs don't defeat the point in gaining levels. They're part of the methods the game uses to correlate levels to fiction while maintaining interesting game play.I've played a fair bit of 4e D&D. There is no issue with "world consistency": the game has very clear descriptions of the "tiers of play" (both in the PHB (pp  28-9) and the DMG (pp 146-7)). This is reinforced by PC build elements, like Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies; and by GM-side elements, like the levels assigned to various creatures and NPCs, the levels at which various monsters are presented as minions rather than standard, etc.There are some places where the 4e DMG gives advice on mapping DCs to fiction (for instance, the DMG pp 64-5). There is also similar advice addressing other aspects of play where it makes sense to have regard to PC level - eg the table on p 44 suggesting level-appropriate "precipitous terrain".In other places, the game leaves it open to the play group to do this sort of "mapping" themselves. LostSoul had a great post about this, years ago now:LostSoul is absolutely correct, in my view. What he says fits perfectly with my own experience of 4e play. And there's a corollary: if the table is frustrated by the fiction that is being created - eg if they are playing a game in which the DCs/obstacle are scaling but the fiction is the same, such as the GM presenting 10th level PCs with Goblin opponents scaled to Level 10 Standard; or with fences and barn walls scaled to 10th level DCs - that's a table problem. The table is ignoring the stuff about tiers of play, and all of the fiction implied by the Tiers of Play and Paragon Paths and the like.The advice isn't "vague" in any way that matters. It provides clear guidance on the correlation of level/tier and fiction, and that guidance is provided in multiple ways. Here are just some examples:*The Monster Manual has Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Gnolls and the like as low-to-mid Heroic tier opponents; has Drow as low-to-mid Paragon tier opponents; and has Orcus as an upper Epitc tier opponent. Of course the rules make it easy to scale up and down: but the MM is presenting a clear picture of what fiction maps (by default) to what tier. *The DMG guidelines on Fall Severity by Character Level (p 44): <table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>Level</td><td>Painful</td><td>Perilous</td><td>Deadly</td></tr><tr><td>1st–5th</td><td>20 ft.</td><td>30 ft.</td><td>40 ft.</td></tr><tr><td>6th–10th</td><td>30 ft.</td><td>50 ft.</td><td>70 ft.</td></tr><tr><td>11th–15th</td><td>40 ft.</td><td>70 ft.</td><td>110 ft.</td></tr><tr><td>16th–20th</td><td>60 ft.</td><td>90 ft.</td><td>140 ft.</td></tr><tr><td>21st–25th</td><td>80 ft.</td><td>110 ft.</td><td>170 ft.</td></tr><tr><td>26th–30th</td><td>90 ft.</td><td>130 ft.</td><td>200 ft.</td></tr></table> *The PHB and DMG discussions of the "tiers of play". This is from the PHB, but the DMG text is very similar: In the heroic tier . . . you might make mighty leaps or incredible climbs, but you’re still basically earthbound. The fate of a village might hang on the success or failure of your adventures, to say nothing of the risk to your own life. You navigate dangerous terrain and explore haunted crypts, where you can expect to fight sneaky goblins, savage orcs, ferocious wolves, giant spiders, evil cultists, and bloodthirsty ghouls. . . . In the paragon tier . . . [y]ou are able to travel more quickly from place to place, perhaps on a hippogriff mount or using a spell to grant your party flight. In combat, you might fly or even teleport short distances. Death becomes a surmountable obstacle, and the fate of a nation or even the world might hang in the balance as you undertake momentous quests. You navigate uncharted regions and explore long-forgotten dungeons, where you can expect to fight sneaky drow, savage giants, ferocious hydras, fearless golems, rampaging barbarian hordes, bloodthirsty vampires, and crafty mind flayers. . . . In the epic tier . . . y]ou travel across nations in the blink of an eye, and your whole party might take to the air in combat. The success or failure of your adventures has far-reaching consequences, possibly determining the fate of millions in this world and even planes beyond. You navigate otherworldly realms and explore never-before-seen caverns of wonder, where you can expect to battle savage pit fiends, the ferocious tarrasque, sinister sorrowsworn deathlords, bloodthirsty lich archmages, and even demon princes. Players also have access to relevant character abilities, like their powers and rituals.As per the post I quoted from LostSoul, each table will cash all of this out in different ways, creating different fictions and different possibilities. Which - to me, at least - is a virtue in a game based on establishing and collectively exploring a shared imagining.Here's an example from actual play:The fictional actions available to a paragon tier fighter/cleric are different from those available to a 1st level character.Here's a bit more from the same post, about the methodology of framing and resolution, and how that relates to the established fiction:Here's another couple of actual play examples involving the same character:A 1st level Dwarf, no matter how tough for their level, can't shove their hands into a forge and hold down Whelm as it is reforged into Overwhelm. Even a paragon-tier character can't try and threaten the Djinn in front of their lord Yan-C-Bin; nor persuade maruts of their error of timing by solo-ing the Tarrasque.These example show that skill challenges are not just a pacing mechanism. They're also a mechanism for establishing shared fiction about what the PCs do, and what follows from that.</blockquote>

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