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Dimishing Return within Roles and Multiclassing
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<blockquote data-quote="Scipio202" data-source="post: 4198122" data-attributes="member: 63152"><p>In the multiclassing thread many people have been talking about whether one power from class/role A is "as good" as one power from class/role B. Ari made the point that the between class "balance" of powers is in the context of that class/role. A Wizard and a Fighter are balanced in the sense that when a Wizard adds a Wiz13 power to the (wizard) powers he already has, his usefulness increases approximately as much as the Fighter does when he adds a Fig13 power to his other (fighter) powers. However, a Fighter getting a Wiz13 power on top of his other fighter powers may be more powerful than a Fighter adding a Fig13 power.</p><p></p><p>One of the ways I've been thinking about this is diminishing return within your role. Each role has powers that let it do one or a few things - focused damage, area damage, etc. The natural variety within an encounter is going to limit how often you're likely to need a particular effect. E.g. monsters aren't likely to be bunched up constantly, so you probably won't need to throw an area effect spell every single round. The 5th area effect power is probably less (incrementally) useful than the first. Similarly, in most encounters you probably won't need to heal someone or grant a save more than a certain number of times, and "extra" powers that do that might not be all that useful. Conversely, if you are a class that doesn't get healing or area effects, getting one power that does that might be very useful. In that one round where all the monsters are bunched up, or several PCs need healing, both you and the wizard can toss a fireball, or both you and the cleric can heal someone.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, some effects are probably more "linear" in the sense that extra is always good. The 3rd time you can give an attack bonus in the encounter is probably as useful as the first. Similarly, I'm guessing any numerical bonus is likely linear (AC bonus, damage bonus, etc.). So for linear powers multiclassing may just provide variety, but not power. E.g. I can change from attacking Will to attacking Fort, but I still do 2[W] damage.</p><p></p><p>So, in looking through the PrRC, I wanted to look at the different roles and see which had a lot of "linear" powers and which had a lot of "diminishing" powers. I'm focusing on encounter powers, since I'm not sure how to think about utility and daily powers in this context.</p><p></p><p> <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/1.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":1:" title="One :1:" data-shortname=":1:" /> Leader</p><p>Linear: Attack/Damage/AC bonuses</p><p>Diminishing: Heal, Forced Flee</p><p></p><p> <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/2.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":2:" title="Two :2:" data-shortname=":2:" /> Defender</p><p>Linear: Extra Attacks, Damage/AC bonuses</p><p>Diminishing: Heal, Grant Save</p><p>Hard to say: "Target only me"</p><p></p><p> <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/3.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":3:" title="Three :3:" data-shortname=":3:" /> Striker</p><p>Linear: Attack/Damage bonuses, impose attack penalty</p><p>Diminishing: Forced Move, Area Attack</p><p></p><p> <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/4.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":4:" title="Four :4:" data-shortname=":4:" /> Controller</p><p>Linear: none revealed</p><p>Diminishing: Area attack (some with extra penalty/forced move)</p><p></p><p>So, it seems like Controllers may have both the most incentive to multiclass out (to trade away "extra" area attacks), and may be the most appealing role for others to multiclass into (since one area attack may be quite useful). Strikers seemed the most linear, though we don't have a lot of powers to go on.</p><p></p><p>Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to play any 4E demos. For those who have, which kinds of powers/effects did it seem very useful to do once in an encounter, while perhaps less useful to be able to do more times? Which powers/effects seemed equally useful every time?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scipio202, post: 4198122, member: 63152"] In the multiclassing thread many people have been talking about whether one power from class/role A is "as good" as one power from class/role B. Ari made the point that the between class "balance" of powers is in the context of that class/role. A Wizard and a Fighter are balanced in the sense that when a Wizard adds a Wiz13 power to the (wizard) powers he already has, his usefulness increases approximately as much as the Fighter does when he adds a Fig13 power to his other (fighter) powers. However, a Fighter getting a Wiz13 power on top of his other fighter powers may be more powerful than a Fighter adding a Fig13 power. One of the ways I've been thinking about this is diminishing return within your role. Each role has powers that let it do one or a few things - focused damage, area damage, etc. The natural variety within an encounter is going to limit how often you're likely to need a particular effect. E.g. monsters aren't likely to be bunched up constantly, so you probably won't need to throw an area effect spell every single round. The 5th area effect power is probably less (incrementally) useful than the first. Similarly, in most encounters you probably won't need to heal someone or grant a save more than a certain number of times, and "extra" powers that do that might not be all that useful. Conversely, if you are a class that doesn't get healing or area effects, getting one power that does that might be very useful. In that one round where all the monsters are bunched up, or several PCs need healing, both you and the wizard can toss a fireball, or both you and the cleric can heal someone. On the other hand, some effects are probably more "linear" in the sense that extra is always good. The 3rd time you can give an attack bonus in the encounter is probably as useful as the first. Similarly, I'm guessing any numerical bonus is likely linear (AC bonus, damage bonus, etc.). So for linear powers multiclassing may just provide variety, but not power. E.g. I can change from attacking Will to attacking Fort, but I still do 2[W] damage. So, in looking through the PrRC, I wanted to look at the different roles and see which had a lot of "linear" powers and which had a lot of "diminishing" powers. I'm focusing on encounter powers, since I'm not sure how to think about utility and daily powers in this context. :1: Leader Linear: Attack/Damage/AC bonuses Diminishing: Heal, Forced Flee :2: Defender Linear: Extra Attacks, Damage/AC bonuses Diminishing: Heal, Grant Save Hard to say: "Target only me" :3: Striker Linear: Attack/Damage bonuses, impose attack penalty Diminishing: Forced Move, Area Attack :4: Controller Linear: none revealed Diminishing: Area attack (some with extra penalty/forced move) So, it seems like Controllers may have both the most incentive to multiclass out (to trade away "extra" area attacks), and may be the most appealing role for others to multiclass into (since one area attack may be quite useful). Strikers seemed the most linear, though we don't have a lot of powers to go on. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to play any 4E demos. For those who have, which kinds of powers/effects did it seem very useful to do once in an encounter, while perhaps less useful to be able to do more times? Which powers/effects seemed equally useful every time? [/QUOTE]
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