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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Justin Bacon" data-source="post: 3087142" data-attributes="member: 3795">I've been reading this on quite a few forums recently. It's not true. You need to turn the page and finish reading the skill description.A rushed Diplomacy check can be attempted as a full round action with a -10 penalty. Strictly  by the book, our 1st level character with a +23 Diplomacy skill bonus has a 65% chance of prematurely ending any hostile encounter by turning the opponents from Hostile to Unfriendly, an attitude where they won't resort to violence. By 7th level, they'll be able to automatically end any combat before it begins without even straining that much. (They could probably manage it by 5th if they invested in the right equipment.)The Diplomacy rules are flat-out busted. Rich Burlew's corrections (<a href="http://www.giantitp.com" target="_blank">www.giantitp.com</a>) are a good place to start fixing them. My current rules for Diplomacy look like this:Persuasion: You can propose a trade or agreement to another creature with your words; a Diplomacy check can then persuade them that accepting it is a good idea. Either side of the deal may involve physical goods, money, services, promises, or abstract concepts like "satisfaction." The DC for the Diplomacy check is based on three factors: who the target is, the relationship between the target and the character making the check, and the risk vs. reward factor of the deal proposed.    Check: The base DC for a persuasion check is 15, modified by your relationship with the character you’re trying to convince and the risk vs. reward factor of the deal being proposed.    Target’s Check: The character you’re trying to convince makes a Sense Motive check (DC 20). If the check succeeds, double the bonus or penalty provided by the risk vs. reward factor. A failure on this check has no effect. You can choose to oppose the target’s Sense Motive check with a Bluff check, in which case the bonus or penalty is only doubled if their check result both succeeds (against DC 20) and exceeds your Bluff check. (Obviously, you would only want to make a Bluff check if you’re proposing a bad deal.)    Success or Failure: If the Diplomacy check beats the DC, the subject accepts the proposal, with no changes or with minor (mostly idiosyncratic) changes. If the check fails by 5 or less, the subject does not accept the deal but may, at the DM's option, present a counter-offer that would push the deal up one place on the risk-vs.-reward list. For example, a counter-offer might make an Even deal Favorable for the subject. The character who made the Diplomacy check can simply accept the counter-offer, if they choose; no further check will be required. If the check fails by 10 or more, the Diplomacy is over; the subject will entertain no further deals, and may become hostile or take other steps to end the conversation.    It should be noted that, just because a deal has been accepted, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the other character is happy about it. If you use your relationship to take advantage of someone, it may affect their future relationship with you (at the DM’s discretion).    Action: Making a request or proposing a deal generally requires at least 1 full minute. In many situations, this time requirement may greatly increase.    Try Again: If you alter the parameters of the deal you are proposing, you may try to convince the subject that this new deal is even better than the last one. This is essentially how people haggle. As long as you never roll 10 or less than the DC on your Diplomacy check, you can continue to offer deals.    DC    Relationship (Example)    -15    Intimate (someone who with whom you have an implicit trust; a lover or spouse)    -10    Friend (someone with whom you have a regularly positive personal relationship; a long-time buddy or sibling)    -5    Ally (someone on the same team, but with whom you have no personal relationship; a cleric of the same religion or a knight serving the same king)    -2    Acquaintance – Positive (someone you’ve met several times with no particularly negative experiences; the blacksmith that buys your looted equipment regularly)    +0    Just met (no relationship whatsoever)    +2    Acquaintance – Negative (someone you’ve met several times with no particularly positive experiences; the town guard that has arrested you for drunkenness once or twice)    +5    Enemy (someone on an opposed team with whom you have no personal relationship; a cleric of an opposed religion or the orc bandit robbing you)    +10    Personal Foe (someone with whom you have a regularly antagonistic personal relationship; an evil overlord you’re trying to thwart or a bounty hunter sworn to track you down)    +15    Nemesis (someone who has sworn to do you, personally, harm; the brother of a man you murdered in cold blood)    DC    Risk vs. Reward Judgment (Example)    -15    Fantastic (The reward for accepting the deal is very worthwhile; the risk is either acceptable or extremely unlikely. The best-case scenario is a virtual guarantee. Example: An offer to pay a lot of gold for information that isn’t important to the character.)    -10    Good  (The reward is good and the risk is minimal. The subject is very likely to profit from the deal. Example: An offer to pay someone twice their normal daily wage to spend their evening in a seedy tavern with a reputation for vicious brawls and later report on everyone they saw there.)    -5    Favorable (The reward is appealing, but there’s risk involved. If all goes according to plan, though, the deal will end up benefiting the subject. Example: A request for a mercenary to aid the party in battle against a weak goblin tribe in return for a cut of the money and first pick of the magic items.)    +0    Even (The reward and risk more or less even out; or the deal involves neither reward nor risk. Example: A request for directions to someplace that isn’t a secret.)    +5    Unfavorable (The reward is not enough compared to the risk involved. Even if all goes according to plan, chances are it will end badly for the subject. Example: A request to free a prisoner the target is guarding in return for a small amount of money.)    +10    Bad (The reward is poor and the risk is high. The subject is very likely to get the raw end of the deal. Example: A request for a mercenary to aid the party in battle against an ancient red dragon for a small cut of any non-magical treasure.)    +15    Horrible (There is no conceivable way the proposed plan could end up with the subject ahead or the worst-case scenario is guaranteed to occur. Example: An offer to trade a rusty kitchen knife for a shiny new longsword.)Convince: You make a Diplomacy check (DC 15) if you want to convince someone of something that you believe. (If you’re trying to convince them of a lie, it’s a Bluff check.) This DC is adjusted by the relationship between you and the person you’re trying to convince, just like a persuasion check.    Target’s Check: The character you’re trying to convince makes a Sense Motive check (DC 10). If the check succeeds, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to your Diplomacy check (they sense your honesty). This works just like the Aid Another action, so you gain an additional +1 bonus for every 10 points that their check exceeds DC 10.    Success or Failure: If your check succeeds, the other character believes what you’re telling them. (Or at least believes that you believe it to be true.) Of course, what they choose to do with that information depends on the character.Haggling: If you’re haggling, you can make an opposed Diplomacy check to get a better price.    Merchant’s Check: The character selling the item makes a Diplomacy check to set the DC of the buyer’s check.    Relationship: As with a persuasion check, the DC of the buyer’s check is adjusted by the relationship they have with the merchant.    Buyer’s Check: The buyer’s check is compared to the DC set by the merchant’s check, with the result determining whether the haggling was favorable or unfavorable to the buyer. (It should be noted that these results match the Risk vs. Reward scale used for persuasion checks.)    Check Result    Price Adjustment (Risk vs. Reward for Merchant)    DC - 15    +30% (Fantastic)    DC - 12    +25%    DC - 10    +20% (Good)    DC - 7    +15%    DC - 5    +10% (Favorable)    DC - 2    +5%        +0% (Even)    DC + 2    -5%    DC + 5    -10% (Unfavorable)    DC + 7    -15%    DC + 10    -20% (Bad)    DC + 12    -25%    DC + 15    -30% (Horrible)    In general, merchants won’t haggle more than 30% above or 30% below the normal price of an item.    As with any Diplomacy check, the actions of a PC should not be dictated by the check result – if they’re unhappy with the result, they should be allowed to walk away from the sale. NPCs, on the other hand, should generally follow-through on a check result.    Retry: No, although the PCs could haggle over the price of a different item or haggle with a different character for a similar item. A haggling check represents the entire negotiating process between buyer and seller; the result is the best price the PCs are going to get from that buyer or seller.Overcome Intransigence: Some characters simply won’t listen to any attempts at negotiation or deal-making. To overcome their intransigence, you can make a Diplomacy check with a DC of 15 + the subject’s HD + the subject’s Wisdom modifier + the subject’s relationship modifier. If the check succeeds, you can then make a Diplomacy check as normal.Charm Spells: A charmed creature is treated as having a Friendly relationship to the caster (-10 to Diplomacy DC), which replaces any previous relationship modifier. Thus, by charming an enemy, the DC drops from +5 to -10, a decrease of 15. The caster can now talk the creature into anything this improved relationship allows.    Because the effect is based on the spell, the caster can make a Spellcraft check in place of a Diplomacy check when dealing with charmed creatures.</blockquote>

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