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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1537115" data-attributes="member: 5171">Hey Siamang,Well, since it specifies that both happen, I have no problem having both happening.  If Indifference automatically meant "Doesn't attack you", then all they would have had to write was "Turns Indifferent", so in the twisted world of overinterpreting-exactly-what-they-wrote, that sort of helps my argument.However, lest I be thought of as incredibly semantic, let me note that in general, it's easiest to assume that most people attacking you are Hostile.  The "Non-Hostile but attacking because of Social Constraints" aspect is, I feel, a viable and not unreasonable possibility, but it's by no means the usual way to do things.And if I were a Negotiator, and I had just turned a room full of people with guns Indifferent and gotten them to stop firing at me, I wouldn't suddenly think I was in Baldur's Gate and able to search the room and take stuff while they sat there staring blankly at the wall.  I'd say, "Okay, I've now got another chance to win them over, or I've got a chance to leave."  As the DM, that's what I'd give Negotiator PCs -- another chance to avoid the combat (either by a better Diplomacy roll or a hasty exit), or a chance to gain ground with a double-cross and surprise attack.Kahuna Burger: Ah, okay, yeah, that makes sense.  My differentiatikon point was that I had previously been in games where things went like this:BBEG: Now, I'll walk over here and lay down this scepter.  Then I'll pick up the scroll you've laid on the altar.  Then I will read the scroll to make sure that it is legitimate.  And if everything is in order, then I will walk away peacefully and hope that you will do the same.PCs: Okay, I want four sense motive checks, one for each of his statements.Admittedly, the Errata I quoted is still up for debate, because at what point does a lie become a bluff?  Personally, my thought (from my own real-life experiences) is that it becomes a bluff when you create an imaginary story that is more involved than a simple lie.For example:PC is a teen and comes home at one in the morning.  Mom is waiting for him.Mom: Where were you?PC: Um, I was out studying with friends.This is just a lie (the PC was actually out slaying vampires).  Unless Mom is an investigator, she doesn't get a Sense Motive check.However, Mom is not stupid, so she continues:Mom: Really.  And what were you studying?  Who was there?PC: Alex was there, and Birch, and Mister Guile from the school library.This is gray territory.  Maybe a sense motive check is in order, or maybe not.  I honestly am not sure.  However, when Mom says:Mom: It seems awfully late, sweetie.  You were just studying?PC: Yes.Mom: ... (obviously waiting for more)PC: (gives in) Well, we were mostly studying, but then Birch kind of had a long dark moment of the soul because her girlfriend Dorothy wants to take a break, and she doesn't know what to do -- and Alex was really uncomfortable dealing with all of it, so he asked if I could talk with her in private, and I ended up listening to her talk about her personal problems for a long time.  Really, I didn't want to be out that late either.At this point, the PC is actually making up a story, which, in my mind, necessitates a bluff check and an opposing Sense Motive check.  Just one, for that whole story, though.That is, as far as I've found, close to what the book says, the designers have stated as their intent by the rules, and something playable enough to not make Sense Motive either underpowered or overpowered.  That's just my opinion, though.  I'm sure mileage varies.</blockquote>

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