Diplomacy vs. Red Dragon

[Umbran]

Something else to consider - a juvenile red dragon typically has an Intelligence score of 14 (an int mod of +2). That probably means it knows Draconic, and two other languages. It looks like the thing's been living without a parent, so those languages will depend mostly on who/what it's been hanging out with. Probably not humans, unless this "dungeon" is populated with them.

If the PC doesn't try his Diplomacy in a language the dragon knows, it isn't going to work.

 

[Quasqueton]

Thanks for the replies.

It seems that the general consensus here is that the DMG guidelines chart is the proper base?

I do like the idea of more than one skill check.

Also, for the record, the party is looking for some information in the area that has nothing to do with the dragon personally. So sense motive and such will show that the party really has no ulterior motive against the dragon. If all went well, they would never have any more to do with the dragon -- as friend or foe.

The idea is still open for debate, so if you have more ideas or thoughts, lets hear them.

Quasqueton

 

[mkletch]

If the dragon were a bit larger and more powerful, it is always interesting to have the dragon demand one of the party as lunch, but offer to let the others go free in return. This often leaves a look of utter shock on the faces of the players. That is diplomacy red dragon style.

Then again, they are chaotic, and I look at that as being as or even more important than the evil part. It really could demand anything, or nothing, or offer a small tidbit of treasure in return for the party telling tales of the immense wyrm in the dungeon. I see reds as enjoying deceit as much as blood.

-Fletch!

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I'd also suggest coming up with a short list of specific negotiating points on the dragon's part. Maybe a half-dozen to a dozen points. What does it expect to be able to demand for even talking, let alone giving the party what it wants? What things might the party do which would give offense? What approaches will it respond to, including the use of other social skills such as Bluff, Intimidate, and Perform to try to set the tone of the discussion (e.g. bia flattery, bluster, or ingratiation)? Assign a moderate Diplomacy circumstance bonus or penalty to each thing, such that they are individually not too significant, but overall could determine the course of the encounter.

I wouldn't do this sort of thing for every encounter, of course, but when you want is an involved diplomatic exchange as opposed to a single die roll, you want to think about how that experience is structured.

 

[Epametheus]

A juvenile red dragon? Junior got kicked out of daddy's cave early, didn't he?

Sure, he'll be arrogant, but he's still just a kid. Hell, he doesn't even have 2nd level spells, attained damage reduction, or even grown significantly bigger than a horse yet. More importantly, he isn't stupid. A 9th level party should be fully capable of killing it; it won't be fun for them, but they can pull it off, possibly even without a causualty. If the dragon is able to figure out that the party can take it, it really won't be that interested in combat.

Which I guess is where Bluff, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy come in. Since it'll have about a +25 to Diplomacy (after synergy bonuses are counted in), it should be able to beat the Face fairly consistently on opposed diplomacy; for that matter, Junior will have the upper-hand in nearly all opposed skill checks unless the Face has some interesting magic to back up his talking.

Go ahead and have it bargain with them. It'd be a lot like making a pact with a Balor (albeit a very inexperienced one, and presumably with no soul-loss involved); if the Face blows it, they could well wind up being far worse off than they would be if they just went and killed the thing.

'Course, if Junior pushes his luck, the party might decide to go ahead and just kill him anyways. If the PCs know that they're going to go talk to a red dragon, they'd be idiots not to prep to take him on.

 

[The Mad Hatter 10 6]

Well, I usually base diplomatic options on the species of the Dragon. This of course is a stereo type, but typically Reds are Chaotic Evil... which means that they are pretty much depraved and indifferent... one would just as soon eat you and use your sword to pick his teeth. I would think that a Juvy Red would be pretty paranoid and suspicious, especially since he apparently just moved into the area to establish his lair and is probably REALLY REALLY low on the "Dragon Pecking Order". I would think he would want to kill the party quickly to eliminate all possibility of his lair being discovered. If the Dragon were a Green or another type of Lawful Evil Dragon, I would be more open to a diplomatic solution on the part of the group... lawful types seem are more open to negotiation... being "civilized" and all. To sum up... Lawful you can kinda deal with... Chaotics... well, they pretty much like to bash things and watch people squrim as that are burnt to ashes by their breath.

I hope my little opinion here helps!