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Message: <blockquote data-quote="sithramir" data-source="post: 1009436" data-attributes="member: 12183">Um no this is NOT their role. Maybe you should read the players handbook. Paladins are the champions of that faith. The role of a cleric is that of a servant. Tend the needs of the faithful is correct other than its not just the faithful. Converting others, not necesarily the clerics role but an acolyte which wouldn't necessarilly get spells from his god. Basically what you've said even if it was totally correct shows no reason for him to gain sense motive just because its wis based. You obviously don't understand how the skill system works. Cross class means its a normal skill that anyone could have but most don't cause they didn't spend skill points. A cleric could still be good at this.   Having it as a class skill means you are an EXPERT at it. That orc tries to lie to you and you say "No way". If he told you his age you could tell how many months he was off just by the way he looked at his feet or his left eye started to wonder. This is something you'd have to spend lots of time to acquire like a thief would do to learn how to live the streets and bargain.  A cleric also has to spend a lot of time in prayer for spells, SPREADING the word, etc. He doesn't have time to spend like the thief HAD to to become an expert. Thats why its cross-class and considered what any typical person could do and learn if they put points in it.Correct. What does sense motive have to do with this? NOTHING. He should be wise which he is. Theres a difference between being wise and being able to read people like an EXPERT. He can still do it pretty darn well. Lvl 5 he has 4 points in it plus like a +4 from his wisdom so he's got +8 total. He's still great at it. The difference is a thief isn't wise but is well versed and practiced at it and therefore at lvl 5 can have 8 ranks. He probably doesn't even have a wis bonus or maybe a +1 and therefore is equal to that priest in it but in different ways.  Sensing the right course isn't a sense motive. Your example above is purely wisdom not a skill. So he grew up his whole life in a temple. He might have some "need" to sense motives but he wouldn't because he's not a people person. He prays to his god, does jobs for his god, sets up things for church mass, etc. He doesnt' have the time to be an expert. Who's the hack n' slash ? Whoever you called that to you better rethink your ways. EVERY character in my group has cross-class skills. Its the only way to be a good role player and have a non combat oriented character. A fighter is no expect a bluffing but he can still put points in it to fit his character and try. A thief is just naturally better at it because he had to to live on the streets. No offense but your character wouldnt' probably make it past lvl 3 or so without making sure they mixed skills right in MY game. I actually use them all. So what does your players ignoring skill points or saying that isn't what their character would do have to do with the roles of any class? When you understand better the ideas the design team had and what is written in the book for skills, you'd see why they sholdn't get skills like that. Of course my thief has a high spot because he's always watching his back. Doesn't mean the cleric shouldn't be good at it, but he has no reason to be an expert at it. If he wants to remember that he could trade that skill for a class skill by dropping another class skill to cross class when he was a first level character with DM's discretion. Remember also in YOUR world you can make clerics have it. Just in others world when they've read what a "cross-class" skill is and isn't they see why not everyone can have every skill. That is why clerics have spells taht do it. Their god says they "need" to detect lies and they can. Who says they should be expects at it without spells?</blockquote>

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