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<blockquote data-quote="proditor" data-source="post: 1011551" data-attributes="member: 12899">I agree on the Sense Motive being added to Clerics.&nbsp; My logic is simple.&nbsp; SM is not just getting to lies, it's also about knowing if you are getting the whole story.&nbsp; When you are talking to someone who is pouring out their life's problems, SM would allow you to see if they are sugarcoating their end of it.&nbsp; Not a lie, a deception.&nbsp; And why make it class?&nbsp; Because clerics only get INT+2 skill points.&nbsp; So if I run in a standard point buy game or in a set stat game, my INT is not my priority if I want to be effective.&nbsp; Not maxed, just effective.&nbsp; I need a good wisdom to be able to cast at all.&nbsp; It needs to be decently high if I want reasonable DC's.&nbsp; Oh hey, I want to turn undead as well....urgh, I need a decent charisma.&nbsp; Well, I'd prefer not to die, and Bear's Endurance is ridiculously short in duration now....so here comes Con.&nbsp; In most point buy, you're pretty much done by now.&nbsp; That said, I also agree that it is /not/ fitting for /every/ cleric.&nbsp; (Confusing eh?)&nbsp; Honestly, I preferred the old speciality cleric, and while domains and granted powers come close, it's still just close.&nbsp; Make my cleric of Ilmater an excellent ear for his flock with Sense Motive.&nbsp; Give my cleric of Baghtru Intimidate as a class skill, let my cleric of Poseidon get Ride.Clerics are by their very job description the single most varied class in outlook and mentality.&nbsp; How they view the world and it's people's is shaped by dogma, history and ideaology.&nbsp; Some classes may be more &quot;enlighted&quot; depending on your RL worldview, but these guys champion ideals and agendas.&nbsp; And darn few of them overlap.As to Sorcs.&nbsp; Yes, they should get more CHA based skills, but honeslty I see only Diplomacy.&nbsp; It is the natural &quot;counter&quot; to bluff.&nbsp; Walk into a town that fears those with the blood of dragons?&nbsp; Bluff or bargain your way out in one piece.&nbsp; Yes, most of the stuff about their abilities is in the fluff, but honestly, if I read that my 3.0 elven ranger is among the best archers in the land and then see those Drizzt wannabe virtual feats, I'm gonna wonder who was smoking what that day.&nbsp; They fixed the Ranger to comply more to it's own fluff, so why not the other classes? The fluff is the absolute /core/ of a character.&nbsp; It is the base from which springs personality, life, quips, exchanges, outlook and mentality.&nbsp; You might play a PC that is completely against type, but guess what, it was knowing what the type was n the first place that allowed you to do that.&nbsp; Don't tell me I'm a natural diplomat and then expect me to spend my 2 skill points a level to make that a reality.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="proditor, post: 1011551, member: 12899"] I agree on the Sense Motive being added to Clerics. My logic is simple. SM is not just getting to lies, it's also about knowing if you are getting the whole story. When you are talking to someone who is pouring out their life's problems, SM would allow you to see if they are sugarcoating their end of it. Not a lie, a deception. And why make it class? Because clerics only get INT+2 skill points. So if I run in a standard point buy game or in a set stat game, my INT is not my priority if I want to be effective. Not maxed, just effective. I need a good wisdom to be able to cast at all. It needs to be decently high if I want reasonable DC's. Oh hey, I want to turn undead as well....urgh, I need a decent charisma. Well, I'd prefer not to die, and Bear's Endurance is ridiculously short in duration now....so here comes Con. In most point buy, you're pretty much done by now. That said, I also agree that it is /not/ fitting for /every/ cleric. (Confusing eh?) Honestly, I preferred the old speciality cleric, and while domains and granted powers come close, it's still just close. Make my cleric of Ilmater an excellent ear for his flock with Sense Motive. Give my cleric of Baghtru Intimidate as a class skill, let my cleric of Poseidon get Ride. Clerics are by their very job description the single most varied class in outlook and mentality. How they view the world and it's people's is shaped by dogma, history and ideaology. Some classes may be more "enlighted" depending on your RL worldview, but these guys champion ideals and agendas. And darn few of them overlap. As to Sorcs. Yes, they should get more CHA based skills, but honeslty I see only Diplomacy. It is the natural "counter" to bluff. Walk into a town that fears those with the blood of dragons? Bluff or bargain your way out in one piece. Yes, most of the stuff about their abilities is in the fluff, but honestly, if I read that my 3.0 elven ranger is among the best archers in the land and then see those Drizzt wannabe virtual feats, I'm gonna wonder who was smoking what that day. They fixed the Ranger to comply more to it's own fluff, so why not the other classes? The fluff is the absolute /core/ of a character. It is the base from which springs personality, life, quips, exchanges, outlook and mentality. You might play a PC that is completely against type, but guess what, it was knowing what the type was n the first place that allowed you to do that. Don't tell me I'm a natural diplomat and then expect me to spend my 2 skill points a level to make that a reality. [/QUOTE]

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