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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8805468" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't know if I'd go that far.&nbsp; I think the appendix on dungeon creation at the end of the 1e DMG shows Gygax's thinking on how monsters relate to high level play quite well, and the fact is that his published thinking at that point only took monsters up to Level X - monsters that in his mind were available as rare/difficult foes as early as level 8 but which by would be routine foes by level 10.&nbsp; I think it's fair to say that S1 Tomb of Horrors represents Gygax's intention to provide challenge to parties at 10th level or higher, which the game system as written struggled to do.&nbsp; And I think S1 is one of several attempts by Gygax to do that, with another example being WG4 Isle of the Ape.&nbsp; (There were probably others but they didn't get published.)&nbsp; But I don't know that I think you could say that Gygax's intentions are being subverted except to the extent that he seems to initially have thought play would end at about 10th level, and players would take up new characters.&nbsp; The core rules just didn't explain how to challenge a party above 10th level.&nbsp; Nor do I think S1 is specifically an attempt to stop high level spellcasters, so much as high level player characters generally.S1 is almost unique in the Gygaxian canon and still something of a standout to this day as a pure test of player and not a test of character, and by being almost entirely devoid of meaningful combat challenges.&nbsp; The module is almost as easy to complete if you are a low-level character as a high-level character, but to the extent that class abilities matter at all in Tomb of Horrors it is spellcasting ability.&nbsp; It's spells that are most likely going to get you through the module of anything that is on your character sheet.&nbsp; I think this contrasts with the approach in WG4 where standard Gygaxian combat is back in a big way, and all the classes have challenges to face.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8805468, member: 4937"] I don't know if I'd go that far. I think the appendix on dungeon creation at the end of the 1e DMG shows Gygax's thinking on how monsters relate to high level play quite well, and the fact is that his published thinking at that point only took monsters up to Level X - monsters that in his mind were available as rare/difficult foes as early as level 8 but which by would be routine foes by level 10. I think it's fair to say that S1 Tomb of Horrors represents Gygax's intention to provide challenge to parties at 10th level or higher, which the game system as written struggled to do. And I think S1 is one of several attempts by Gygax to do that, with another example being WG4 Isle of the Ape. (There were probably others but they didn't get published.) But I don't know that I think you could say that Gygax's intentions are being subverted except to the extent that he seems to initially have thought play would end at about 10th level, and players would take up new characters. The core rules just didn't explain how to challenge a party above 10th level. Nor do I think S1 is specifically an attempt to stop high level spellcasters, so much as high level player characters generally. S1 is almost unique in the Gygaxian canon and still something of a standout to this day as a pure test of player and not a test of character, and by being almost entirely devoid of meaningful combat challenges. The module is almost as easy to complete if you are a low-level character as a high-level character, but to the extent that class abilities matter at all in Tomb of Horrors it is spellcasting ability. It's spells that are most likely going to get you through the module of anything that is on your character sheet. I think this contrasts with the approach in WG4 where standard Gygaxian combat is back in a big way, and all the classes have challenges to face. [/QUOTE]

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