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Discuss: Combat as War in D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8265519" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>It is about "war" in the sense that Sun Tzu's <em>The Art of War</em> is about "war." You can still speak in an abstract way even if every example necessarily differs. War as a mindset, a philosophy, an approach to situations and opponent behaviors.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well I mean...it's generally understood that <em>intentionally</em> throwing a TPK at your players is a pretty big jerk move. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is a joke for a reason, and likewise the presence of the red dragon in earlier editions' random encounter tables is often justified with "well of course it wouldn't ATTACK, the PCs are beneath its notice, only suicidally stupid PCs would try to engage with it."</p><p></p><p>It's perfectly possible to make an encounter characters cannot win in 4e. You just generally don't do things that way because it isn't very fun to miss-miss-miss-miss-miss until you die. And I have absolutely seen situations where a DM told us, "you really shouldn't try to fight this guy. He's so far out of your league it isn't even potentially possible for you to hurt him." (Meaning, even with an amazing plan and flaming-hot dice, we would stand no chance.)</p><p></p><p>If that gets counted as "DM fiat," it seems to me that ALL forms of opposition are "DM fiat," so the criticism falls rather flat.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That sounds rather different from what you were saying eariler. I absolutely have my enemy factions act and respond outside of what the PCs do. They just don't generally directly threaten the PCs, partly because I made it an intrigue-heavy game, partly because I don't want to stress my players out over whether they get to keep the characters they like playing. At first, much of this was because the PCs were nobodies who hadn't made a name for themselves; now it's a mix of who their allies (upright and dubious) are, their proven ability to thwart typical direct responses, and the fact that symbolic or political victories are often more important than brute physical ones.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Both of those are cheating unless the DM does the work of justifying them in-fiction before they are deployed. If the players fail to investigate far enough and thus didn't learn about the wizard's super-serum research or the goblins' client relationship with a dragon, that isn't the DM's fault. But if the DM adds HP in the middle of fights or magics a green dragon out of the ether to pound the party, both actions are cheating: "I'm altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, very much how it's worked in my game. Dark forces that must keep to the shadows, work through intermediaries, conceal their efforts until the time is right, etc. In general, they can't risk too much open conflict--that tends to awaken a deadly response. Instead, they sow discord, kill important figures, recruit followers, commit terrorism, that sort of thing. To survive as they have, these forces have gotten good at hiding from the authorities. But Random Adventurers, who come and go as they please and who are a lot less beholden to the limits that sultanas and armies and priests are beholden to? They're tough to hide from.</p><p></p><p>[USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] I'm on my phone so I can't respond properly now, but will do so later. Probably after I DM tonight's Dungeon World game. Because I strongly suspect it will be a doozy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8265519, member: 6790260"] It is about "war" in the sense that Sun Tzu's [I]The Art of War[/I] is about "war." You can still speak in an abstract way even if every example necessarily differs. War as a mindset, a philosophy, an approach to situations and opponent behaviors. Well I mean...it's generally understood that [I]intentionally[/I] throwing a TPK at your players is a pretty big jerk move. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" is a joke for a reason, and likewise the presence of the red dragon in earlier editions' random encounter tables is often justified with "well of course it wouldn't ATTACK, the PCs are beneath its notice, only suicidally stupid PCs would try to engage with it." It's perfectly possible to make an encounter characters cannot win in 4e. You just generally don't do things that way because it isn't very fun to miss-miss-miss-miss-miss until you die. And I have absolutely seen situations where a DM told us, "you really shouldn't try to fight this guy. He's so far out of your league it isn't even potentially possible for you to hurt him." (Meaning, even with an amazing plan and flaming-hot dice, we would stand no chance.) If that gets counted as "DM fiat," it seems to me that ALL forms of opposition are "DM fiat," so the criticism falls rather flat. That sounds rather different from what you were saying eariler. I absolutely have my enemy factions act and respond outside of what the PCs do. They just don't generally directly threaten the PCs, partly because I made it an intrigue-heavy game, partly because I don't want to stress my players out over whether they get to keep the characters they like playing. At first, much of this was because the PCs were nobodies who hadn't made a name for themselves; now it's a mix of who their allies (upright and dubious) are, their proven ability to thwart typical direct responses, and the fact that symbolic or political victories are often more important than brute physical ones. Both of those are cheating unless the DM does the work of justifying them in-fiction before they are deployed. If the players fail to investigate far enough and thus didn't learn about the wizard's super-serum research or the goblins' client relationship with a dragon, that isn't the DM's fault. But if the DM adds HP in the middle of fights or magics a green dragon out of the ether to pound the party, both actions are cheating: "I'm altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further." Yes, very much how it's worked in my game. Dark forces that must keep to the shadows, work through intermediaries, conceal their efforts until the time is right, etc. In general, they can't risk too much open conflict--that tends to awaken a deadly response. Instead, they sow discord, kill important figures, recruit followers, commit terrorism, that sort of thing. To survive as they have, these forces have gotten good at hiding from the authorities. But Random Adventurers, who come and go as they please and who are a lot less beholden to the limits that sultanas and armies and priests are beholden to? They're tough to hide from. [USER=29398]@Lanefan[/USER] I'm on my phone so I can't respond properly now, but will do so later. Probably after I DM tonight's Dungeon World game. Because I strongly suspect it will be a doozy. [/QUOTE]
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