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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8266553" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Serious question: Does this mean "rocks fall, everyone dies" is not "cheating" as you see it? Because in my book it very much is. A bald declaration "oh yeah by the way there's a green dragon patron," which the players could not have learned about, even in principle, because it didn't exist prior to the DM declaring it, is fundamentally DM cheating. It's cheating in a very similar way to how "godmoding" (acting in "god mode") is cheating in a freeform roleplay context, because both fundamentally deny the other participants their ability to respond meaningfully--they must dance on your strings because they literally can't/couldn't do anything else, even if they wanted to.Again, I have absolutely ZERO problems with:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">you as DM determined in advance that these goblins have a green dragon patron, and made it genuinely possible for the players to know this (even if they didn't actually find out for whatever reason)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">you as DM decided after the fact that these goblins would have a green dragon patron, and either (a) give the players some leeway in how you interpret their past actions so they could have prepared about what they should have known if it were possible, or (b) in the moment provide the players with some way to address or respond to the green dragon (even if that response doesn't include everything the players wish they could do)</li> </ul>Merely adding to the world or changing stuff in it can't be cheating. It's literally our job as DM. Doing so illegitimately--so the players had zero chance, even with infinite time, effort, or cleverness, to learn of or ready for it--makes it cheating. We DMs have great power, but the player-DM relationship entails duties on both sides. If the players are expected to give trust to the DM, that necessarily requires that the DM be worthy of that trust, restricting the DM's creative freedom at least a little.Again, that's why I have a problem with BOTH things you described. The first takes away the success of the player(s) (or failure! I have just as much problem with removing an opponent's HP without justification) in ways they could never know, even in principle. The second takes away the knowledge of the player(s), in ways they could never know, even in principle. Both are illegitimate power moves in a context where reciprocity is essential.</blockquote>

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