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Discuss: Combat as War in D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8268278" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>I play music with a couple of guys, and come up with my own tunes now and then. They've both got formal musical training. I don't. And during this messing around I've been told on numerous occasions "What you just did there, it's not supposed to work. But it does." This is the sort of thing I mean: going outside the guidelines can work and sometimes does.</p><p></p><p>When talking about "what I expect" I'm referring to the potential outcome of a combat with all the other assumptions - absolute representations, etc. - already in place.</p><p></p><p>Just like any other dyed-in-the-wool kitbasher.</p><p></p><p>Well, that's what you're gonna get.</p><p></p><p>The meaningfulness comes once the characters have tried hitting each one a few times and been able to realize that chopping through one type of scales is a bit easier than through the other.</p><p></p><p>Yes you did. See below.</p><p></p><p>If the mechanics don't reflect the intrinsics (or vice-versa) then either the mechanics are garbage or the intrinsics are garbage; because <em>reflection of the intrinsics is what those mechanics exist to do</em>. Period. They'r either locked together or they're useless, pick one.</p><p></p><p>Which means that yes, you DID say the intrinsic toughness changed when you said the mechanical toughness changed.</p><p></p><p>No there doesn't; and further, any such difference is an error in the mechanics at best and plain poor design at worst.</p><p></p><p>A map, to be of any practical use at all other than artwork or a vague schematic, has to <em>accurately</em> portray what it's being asked to portray. You don't just put a note on a nautical chart saying "By the way, there might or might not be a dangerous rock in this area somewhere"; instead you do the surveying, find the rock if it exists, note its precise location and height/depth relative to chart datum, and then put it on the chart exactly where it is in relation to everything else.</p><p></p><p>Same with mechanical representaiton of a creature. It's only any use if it's accurate.</p><p></p><p>You say assumption, I say fact. And I have justified it, numerous times, with these words: internal setting consistency.</p><p></p><p>That right there is all the justification required and more.</p><p></p><p>Fine, but when there's a choice between minimizing the degree of abstraction and doing anything else, taking the minimum route seems both easiest and most logical.</p><p></p><p>To flip this around - and I don't say this in criticism - instead of pulling edge-case random events you're pulling edge-case rules exploits, which are something any worthwhile DM should shut down as soon as they arise. Why the different approaches to each? Simple. Edge-case random events are just that: random, unpredictable, and infrequent-to-rare. Edge-case rules exploits are repeatable at will and, unless shut down, can and will become commonplace once found.</p><p></p><p>This assumes there's been such a ramp-up in power level on the part of the PCs that they can ever get to the point where an ogre can be one-shotted every single time. I don't see that as achievable; a character can still roll '1' on the damage die and if their bonuses give enough plusses to take down a 40 h.p. ogre even on a minimum roll that's simply not a game I'm interested in playing.</p><p></p><p>Put another way, and in more general terms, I see the ramp-up in PC power as being (more than) enough to reflect their development as they advance in level; and see no need at all to also correspondingly weaken (or, at low PC levels, strengthen) the creatures they're facing. It also depends, I suppose, on just how much difference you want there to be between a 1st level PC* and a 12th-level PC*.</p><p></p><p>* - or 1 HD (or CR 1) monster and 12 HD (or CR 12) monster, either comparison works for this purpose.</p><p></p><p>Where I think the numbers not only need to do that, but doing that is why they exist at all.</p><p></p><p>Not that it exactly comes up every week, but on the occasions it has I've never had any problem whatsoever in handling monster-v-monster interactions*. This is the advantage of absolute representation: the setting can interact with itself on a consistent basis if-when it has to.</p><p></p><p>* - some example of how this has come up in my games: </p><p>--- [rare] the PCs come on to some monsters that are fighting each other, so they take cover and watch the proceedings in order to a) assess the capabilities of the combatants and-or b) let them beat each other up and then move in and finish them all off</p><p>--- [common] the PCs summon some monsters and turn them loose to wreak what havoc they can while the PCs do other things elsewhere</p><p>--- [rare] a shapeshifted or polymorphed individual, having for whatever reason retained few if any of its original abilities, enters or is forced into combat while still in that form</p><p></p><p>Most of the time with the first two instances and every time with the third instance I do the requisite rolling and play these out as full combats; an example exception would be if in the first instance there's a huge number of creatures involved I'm not going to roll for each one of them.</p><p></p><p>Fortunately I've never encountered this incredibly ass-dumb rule; were I to ever trip over it - or anything else that ridiculous - I'd remove it from my game before I'd finished reading the sentence it was in.</p><p></p><p>Healing surges aren't it, but you're right in that 4e is the only D&D edition to even wave at a body-fatigue system in any way; and that's with its 'bloodied' mechanic. 4e IMO went way too far with some of what it did, so its perhaps ironic that I say here that with this mechanic they didn't go nearly far enough; as it's a pretty short jump from bloodied to a full-on body-fatigue or wound-vitality system.</p><p></p><p>Birds aren't hollow either, but their bones are; as I think would also be those of dragons other than a few key structural pieces e.g. spine and leg bones.</p><p></p><p>The rules simultaneously define and reflect the setting, which is why every time I change a rule I have to be a bit careful as in doing so I'm also changing the underlying physics of the setting. If for example I was to take the homebrew setting I'm using for my current game and suddenly overlay, say, the 3.5e or Pathfinder ruleset on to it; though the physical aspects of the setting e.g. mountains, oceans, etc. wouldn't change, aspects of just about every living or undead creature would, and quite dramatically in some cases.</p><p></p><p>I've seen it happen numerous times both as DM and player. The survivor either finds a way to revive some or all of the fallen companions or goes out and recruits a new party. Simple. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>The map, regardless of purpose, still needs to be accurate.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8268278, member: 29398"] I play music with a couple of guys, and come up with my own tunes now and then. They've both got formal musical training. I don't. And during this messing around I've been told on numerous occasions "What you just did there, it's not supposed to work. But it does." This is the sort of thing I mean: going outside the guidelines can work and sometimes does. When talking about "what I expect" I'm referring to the potential outcome of a combat with all the other assumptions - absolute representations, etc. - already in place. Just like any other dyed-in-the-wool kitbasher. Well, that's what you're gonna get. The meaningfulness comes once the characters have tried hitting each one a few times and been able to realize that chopping through one type of scales is a bit easier than through the other. Yes you did. See below. If the mechanics don't reflect the intrinsics (or vice-versa) then either the mechanics are garbage or the intrinsics are garbage; because [I]reflection of the intrinsics is what those mechanics exist to do[/I]. Period. They'r either locked together or they're useless, pick one. Which means that yes, you DID say the intrinsic toughness changed when you said the mechanical toughness changed. No there doesn't; and further, any such difference is an error in the mechanics at best and plain poor design at worst. A map, to be of any practical use at all other than artwork or a vague schematic, has to [I]accurately[/I] portray what it's being asked to portray. You don't just put a note on a nautical chart saying "By the way, there might or might not be a dangerous rock in this area somewhere"; instead you do the surveying, find the rock if it exists, note its precise location and height/depth relative to chart datum, and then put it on the chart exactly where it is in relation to everything else. Same with mechanical representaiton of a creature. It's only any use if it's accurate. You say assumption, I say fact. And I have justified it, numerous times, with these words: internal setting consistency. That right there is all the justification required and more. Fine, but when there's a choice between minimizing the degree of abstraction and doing anything else, taking the minimum route seems both easiest and most logical. To flip this around - and I don't say this in criticism - instead of pulling edge-case random events you're pulling edge-case rules exploits, which are something any worthwhile DM should shut down as soon as they arise. Why the different approaches to each? Simple. Edge-case random events are just that: random, unpredictable, and infrequent-to-rare. Edge-case rules exploits are repeatable at will and, unless shut down, can and will become commonplace once found. This assumes there's been such a ramp-up in power level on the part of the PCs that they can ever get to the point where an ogre can be one-shotted every single time. I don't see that as achievable; a character can still roll '1' on the damage die and if their bonuses give enough plusses to take down a 40 h.p. ogre even on a minimum roll that's simply not a game I'm interested in playing. Put another way, and in more general terms, I see the ramp-up in PC power as being (more than) enough to reflect their development as they advance in level; and see no need at all to also correspondingly weaken (or, at low PC levels, strengthen) the creatures they're facing. It also depends, I suppose, on just how much difference you want there to be between a 1st level PC* and a 12th-level PC*. * - or 1 HD (or CR 1) monster and 12 HD (or CR 12) monster, either comparison works for this purpose. Where I think the numbers not only need to do that, but doing that is why they exist at all. Not that it exactly comes up every week, but on the occasions it has I've never had any problem whatsoever in handling monster-v-monster interactions*. This is the advantage of absolute representation: the setting can interact with itself on a consistent basis if-when it has to. * - some example of how this has come up in my games: --- [rare] the PCs come on to some monsters that are fighting each other, so they take cover and watch the proceedings in order to a) assess the capabilities of the combatants and-or b) let them beat each other up and then move in and finish them all off --- [common] the PCs summon some monsters and turn them loose to wreak what havoc they can while the PCs do other things elsewhere --- [rare] a shapeshifted or polymorphed individual, having for whatever reason retained few if any of its original abilities, enters or is forced into combat while still in that form Most of the time with the first two instances and every time with the third instance I do the requisite rolling and play these out as full combats; an example exception would be if in the first instance there's a huge number of creatures involved I'm not going to roll for each one of them. Fortunately I've never encountered this incredibly ass-dumb rule; were I to ever trip over it - or anything else that ridiculous - I'd remove it from my game before I'd finished reading the sentence it was in. Healing surges aren't it, but you're right in that 4e is the only D&D edition to even wave at a body-fatigue system in any way; and that's with its 'bloodied' mechanic. 4e IMO went way too far with some of what it did, so its perhaps ironic that I say here that with this mechanic they didn't go nearly far enough; as it's a pretty short jump from bloodied to a full-on body-fatigue or wound-vitality system. Birds aren't hollow either, but their bones are; as I think would also be those of dragons other than a few key structural pieces e.g. spine and leg bones. The rules simultaneously define and reflect the setting, which is why every time I change a rule I have to be a bit careful as in doing so I'm also changing the underlying physics of the setting. If for example I was to take the homebrew setting I'm using for my current game and suddenly overlay, say, the 3.5e or Pathfinder ruleset on to it; though the physical aspects of the setting e.g. mountains, oceans, etc. wouldn't change, aspects of just about every living or undead creature would, and quite dramatically in some cases. I've seen it happen numerous times both as DM and player. The survivor either finds a way to revive some or all of the fallen companions or goes out and recruits a new party. Simple. :) The map, regardless of purpose, still needs to be accurate. [/QUOTE]
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