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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8781423" data-attributes="member: 6801228">We have already established that one of the biggest things that created societies is access to food. Plant Growth, 3rd level spell, doubles food production. Another thing we established was access to water. Create or Destroy Water, 1st level spell. Also, what if rats get in the grain and spoil it, or a well is fouled? Purify Food and Drink, 1st level ritual. Rulers must make important decisions that affect the lives of their people. Augury, 2nd level spell, gives a sign of Weal or Woe to an action you plan to take in the next 30 minutes. Rulers must make judgements, trying criminals to find who is guilty and who is not. Zone of Truth, 2nd level spell. I know, I know. "THESE DO NOT MAKE RULING INEVITABLE!! They simply are tools that Warriors and Fighters will force mages to use for them, not put the mages in charge" But a Cleric of equal level to a fighter can also project personal force. They can also gather followers. They can also make money. And the more tools of the state that make the running of the state function are in the hands of the spellcasters, the more and more likely it becomes that those spellcasters end up as a ruling class. It didn't happen in real world history, because the power of life and death stayed solely in the realm of martial combat, because we don't have magic in this world. But the guy who can cast the spells to create water and double food production can also cast things like Thunderwave and take on a group of three or four men in single combat. Why the hell would that happen? You know that Nobility treated peasants as second-class citizens, right? And nobles kept power and generally weren't subject to rebellions the vast majority of the time? Oh, and they generally didn't make the peasants slaves (this can change depending on where) This isn't changing the social order to make all non-mages slaves. This is changing the social order to make all nobles mages. That doesn't change how the nobles would treat the non-nobles at all. Nothing about how the nobles treat the peasants needs to change one iota. Sure, new nobility would be looked down upon until they had heirs that learned enough magic. Just like new nobility was looked down on because they couldn't quote Plato or Thomas Aquinas. I don't understand why you think mages being in charge automatically would make them worse rulers than non-mages. But you keep hammering on that point. Why? what about being a magic user automatically would make you want to oppress and enslave non-magic users? Would they prevent non-magic users from becoming nobles and royals? Yes, just like nobles have always tried to prevent commoners from becoming nobles or royals. This isn't new behavior.  Why wouldn't they stand for it? This is no different than saying all nobles must be able to fight, hunt and command armies. Magic is a learnable skill, warlock contracts don't even require that. If the gods feel someone deserves to be part of the ruling class because they are properly fit for it, then why not make them a celestial warlock, send an Angel to make them a Divine Soul Sorcerer, grant them powers of a cleric or a paladin? All of that would qualify. Your point seems to be that the Gods wouldn't stand for a system of government that doesn't allow anyone at all to become a leader. And, well, they already DO stand for that. The very existence of a noble class creates the exact disparity you assure me the gods would never tolerate. You cannot have a ruling class without have a class of the ruled. If the ruling class can make demands of the ruled class, and expected to be followed because of their status, then there is inequality. Maybe you are using the term differently? No, oppression is the oppression of the lower classes by the higher classes. Inequality is the state of things being un-equal between the higher classes and the lower classes. Inequality is inevitable, because people cannot be perfectly equal and have a social order with an upper, middle, and lower class. Oppression isn't inevitable. Oppression is an abuse of that inequality and a mistreatment of others. This explains a lot, if we have been using the same term in two different ways. Not a single person in this entire thread has made this claim except for you. Of course you are a person if you can't cast spells. You just aren't a noble. Non-nobles are still people. Unless you live in a society that believes that power alone determines your worth.You are protesting a model NO ONE is supporting. Can you list another way to guarantee the cleansing of spoiled grain? That's a basic level 1 ritual. Take grain that is diseased and unfit for consumption, and purify it so that it can be eaten. Is there a non-magical way to do this presented in the rules? I think part of your issue is you have a very specific idea of what it means when we say "mages are in charge" For me, it means literally what it says on the tin. Spellcasters are the nobility, the ruling class, and in charge of the kingdom. For you it seems to mean non-spellcasters are enslaved, sub-human thralls to the tyranical magical overlords. So, for me, if the ruling class is constantly using highly specialized magical items, which require knowledge to create, and we know that a level 1 artificer is just as easy to learn to be as a level 1 fighter... why wouldn't the nobles eventually seek more control over the levers of power by becoming more and more specialized in the use and creation of the tools that are needed to leverage power? It doesn't change the model at all, it just addresses it in a different manner. But for you, this is a non-sequiter, because learning to use magical tools doesn't make you a tyrant enslaving the muggles to enforce your magical lordship on them as lesser beings. No. The OP made that claim, but even the OP absolutely stated that it is inveitable "unless something prevents it" and in fact spent a good deal of their post talking about Dragon Age and how it prevents the rise of magic-users ruling the nation by not only having magic-users being distrusted, but a reliable way for non-magic users to shut down magic-users. It is inevitable over time, unless there are active forces that stop it. And the only active force you have given is that people won't stand to be enslaved. Which... doesn't address the situation at all, because no one is saying that magic users would enslave the populace. Your other point is that magic-users couldn't overthrow non-magic users because armies. But... people with armies get overthrown pretty regularly. And magic-users can ALSO have armies. This is the key point of the inevitability. Anything a non-magic user CAN do, a magic-user can also do. But there are things a magic-user CAN do that a non-magic user CANNOT do. Within those options then, they will win more often than not. People with power will seek magical power for its benefits, because it has so many benefits. Power tends to aggregate at the top, and magic is power, pure and simple.</blockquote>

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