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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 4597060" data-attributes="member: 48965">Okay, I have seen page 42 highlighted as the holy grail of improvising actions in 4e...now granted, it does give guidelines for damage and basically what amounts to skill checks for actions...but I fail to see how this helps one to improvise status conditions or movement effects.  I am also missing why any player in their right mind would choose to do any of these improvised actions vs. using their powers...D&D is a tactical game and it doesn't make sense to try something like this...if it is less effective than one's powers....Let's take the example given in the book, but reduce level to 1 for a simpler example and replace the Ogre with a Bugbear Warrior.Ok, the exmple is a rogue swinging on a chandelier and kicking the Bugbear into a brazier of hot coals...Let's look at how this plays out...Using the books example, it's an easy DC, so 10 (we won't add the 5 since it's been errata'd...I think)... not too hard and with this check the rogue gets a hold on the chandelier and swings at the Ogre... Let's say for arguments sake a character will do this regardless...otherwise it's an extra check and just an extra chance at failing as opposed to just moving regularly (which could actually be one of the points against trying this as opposed to a power).Now the kick...In the book it suggests Str attack vs. Fort, let's give the Rogue, the benefit of the doubt and say they have an ok Str...14 from the standard array...so +2 vs. the Bugbears Fort Def of 17...so roll a 15 or higher to push the Bugbear one square and into the brazier...for a "high" damage expression...2d6+3 (Avg damage 10)...Hmmm.  Just doesn't seem worth it to me.  Disregarding the extra check in the beginning just to swing, why would I choose to do this over a power...let's see...Assuming a Rogue has a Dex of 18 (16 and a +2 from race)...and is using a short sword...+3 prof bonus, they're total to hit bonus is +7, If he uses Sly Flourish it is vs. AC... thus +7 vs. 18.  Now assuming the Rogue has a decent Charisma, the power would do 1d6+4+2(for Cha mod)... (Avg damage 9.5 ) damage...So you've traded a 20% bonus to hit...to do .5 more damage on average...doesn't seem like this would encourage anyone to do this...especially when you start factoring in the damage from possible combat advantage (sneak attack) or the use of a superior weapon (Rapier) and suddenly there is no advantage to trying the above stunt.This wouldn't be so bad, but D&D is a tactical based game...and while it might be "cool" to do the swing from chandelier trick...it conflicts with the tactically sound option of using one's power.  I know many people love the more forced, team oriented direction of 4e...but this is one of the problems I see with it, a player decides to try something like this and they're not just screwing themselves...they're screwing over the whole party.    I don't like this aspect of 4e... and I know some will say just give more bonuses but if the stunts are too easy then why even have powers, suddenly they're meaningless. Also, how does one judge movement and status effects when PC's want to accomplish them?  What are others doing as far as this situation, or are others even noticing this in their games?  Thoughts or ideas??</blockquote>

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