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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DM_Blake" data-source="post: 3929055" data-attributes="member: 57267">So, with all these posts, I keep seeing that for most people, the +x is irritating, the fact that they are required is much more irritating, and the items being too common and even being purchased is the most irritating.So, the proper way to fix the problem is to fix it from the biggest problem to smallest problem.Fixing the biggest problem is the easiest. Don't let players buy items. Don't put them in every hoard ("Oh, goody, another +1 sword. 3rd one this week..."). now they are rare enough that players will hang onto what they find.From time to time, a player will find an upgrade. The 10th level fighter will eventually find a sword better than the one he got at 6th level. Now he will either pass it on to a buddy in the group, or hang onto it as a backup, or try to sell it. Up to him. But, even if he can convince a rich merchant or nobleman to buy it, and he makes some pocket change, that doesn't mean he can buy any tiems himself. Or to be more realistic, make it so that the occasional magic item is, rarely, sold. At random. No special orders, no picking through inventory.In my capital city, there is a magic item auction held once a month. The players enjoy it (they're not always in town for it, but when they are, they attend). I roll 3d6 to see how many items are up for sale. I tell them (the auctioneer advertises it for days in advance to draw a crowd) but nobody knows what will be sold. Then I randomly generate an item and start the bidding. No potions, no scrolls - those can be acquired more easily. If nobody in the group wants to bid, I wave it off saying "the action is complete and some guy bought it - next item is" and keep the pace moving. Sometimes, there's only a half dozen items, sometimes over a dozen. It's funny when the fighter passes on a +2 weapon, hoping for a better one, and then there are no more weapons in that action. I also fudge the prices. It's an auction. Sometimes people overbid. Nothing says bidding on a +2 sword ends at 8,315 gold. I generally follow a pattern: the more useful an item is, the more someone in the auction will pay for it. Strange and situational items tend to go for less.That's just one way to, occasionally, give the players a chance to buy a magic item. I've even been known to fake my random roll and put something up for action that I know the players have been watning.Another way is barter. Maybe nobody sells a +2 sword, but some nobleman might be convinced to part with his +2 sword in return for something else of great value to the nobleman. That value might be a different magic item (maybe he really wants a crystal ball to spy on his enemies) or it might be service (a quest for the players).Another way is to find someone who makes items and have them make what you want. They rarely do this just for cash. If it's cash, it's a whole lot (that guy is giving up his own XP). They might take barter, or send the group on a quest.So there's lots of ways to get items into the players hands without flooding the world with magic, and without ptuting street-corner magic vendors on, well, every street corner.************************The next biggest problem is the hardest to fix. How do you balance a core system that assumes the existience of +x items so that monsters are still the right challenge when the players don't have them?A fun battle I ran recently was a level 3 group taking on a shadow. They had one +1 dagger and no other magic weapons. The rogue gave the dagger to the fighter, and everyone else tried to Aid Another to protect the wizard who tried to magic missile the shadow to death before he got strength drained into becoming a shadow himself.But at higher levels, this kind of thing is deadly to the players. Creating a whole Iron Heroes system to offset it is just replacing magic item dependency on class ability dependency.Sure, that's one good solution, but again, it's really a campaign setting, not a core system.Probably the easiest fix is to not strip the players of magic items entirely. If a 10th level party has to fight some ghosts, then fine - chances are they all have some knd of magical weapon to make it possible.If we apply our fix to for the biggest problem to also fix our medium problem, then maybe the medium problem isn't too bad. If there are only a couple +x rings of protection in the whole group, and only a couple magic weapons, and only a couple +x stat items, then not everyone has them. Those that do, will find them useful, and unique enough in that campaign to be interesting. Especially if they had to search long and hard, go on quests, and eventually feel lucky that they found it in a rare hoard, or found the right enchanter who sent them questing while he made the item. They still earned it the hard way, and it's still interesting and unique enough.And given that, then the whole party isn't walking around with +3rings of protection and +2 to all of their favorite stats, etc.Heck, 3e doesn't even require that you do anything to implement this. Just assign more coin, gems, and art to the monsters, and less magic.So what if the 15th level fighter doesn't have a 26 STR and +5 weapon. He will still have a 22 STR and a +3 weapon. He's only -4 to hit compared to what he might have been. He can still hit, and kill, CR15 monsters just fine.Sure, this makes each fight a little tougher. If you must, just kniock off a few points of AC and a few HP from the monsters and call it good.The point is, the game still works if you play it this way.And, finally, the listtlest problem.************************If you implement the previous two suggestions, or something like them, then how big a problem is it, really, that +x items exist.Given those suggestions, you've made them fairly rare. It's not hard to spin a RP reason for Protection, +x swords, belts of giant strength.As long as they're rare, and have an interesting flavor spin on them, is this still even a problem?If it is, then don't use them, but then you do have a bit of work on your hands. The hardest woudl be to remake those items to have fun effects. Easier would be to just don't let them exist at all, but now you have to fight weaker monsters. Your 15th level group might find CR 13 to be a fair fight.But if y ou do that, you will need 2x as many fights to get enough XP to l evel. Some DMs feels that 3e levels too fast anyway, so they might see this as a good thing. Others, the simple fix is to fight CR 13 for a fair fight, but give XP like it was CR 15.************************Given all that, it seems to me that 3.5e is easy enough to tune to any style of play. A no-magic style takes a bit of work, but it doable, and a christmas tree style doesn't take any work at all.If 4e is going to be successful, they might need to choose a base rule set that is similar to 3e, so that minimalists can minimize by stripping out the stuff they don't want, and eveyone else can play the system.The alternative, catering to the minimalists, means those players are happy and everyone else has no magic system to use.Sure, 4e could make a non-minimalist system with no +x items in it. But the lack of such items would feel strange. Magic items everywhere, but nobody has figured out how to make them hit more often, cut deeper, defend better, or make us stronger or healthier or smarter or faster, would just seem half-finished. These items have their place. How big a place is  yet to be seen. But, it's easier for us players to ignore them than it would be to replace them.At least, that's my 2 cents. Or, lots of cents...</blockquote>

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