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Discussion: Storm Pillar and Hindering Terrain
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<blockquote data-quote="ryryguy" data-source="post: 5000137" data-attributes="member: 64945"><p>Ok... so, I really don't want to drag out this rules argument. I'd also be fine with option A, it seems playable and fun. But, I did review the rulebooks as suggested, so I might as well post what I found. </p><p></p><p>After review, I still think it's ambiguous at best. There is no unambiguous, explicit statement (that I can find anyway) stating that squares with a damaging effect created by a power should be treated as hindering terrain. Pretty much all of the discussion of terrain in the DMG is geared towards how a DM should use it in constructing an encounter. Indeed, it's rather parallel to the discussion of monster roles: categorizations to help in encounter design rather than something to hang other rules off of. </p><p></p><p>You could say that this is just a function of the fact that it appears in the "Encounter Settings" section. However, if powers were definitely meant to create terrain effects as a matter of course, I'd expect to see at least a little discussion of how that might come into play in encounter design, i.e., how to use a monster that has a power that creates hindering terrain.</p><p></p><p>The majority of examples that appear are explicitly, unambiguously "things in the world" placed by the DM: "the low rock wall, or the crumbled statues in the dungeon room... a wide chasm... lava... etc." I found only two which seem like they could refer to power effect: "zones of magical darkness" (pg 62) and "a cloud of daggers" (pg 44). The first still seems quite ambiguous to me. The second is stronger, but still not completely clear cut. "the effect of Cloud of Daggers" would be clear cut. "a cloud of daggers" is not. (I will grant that it's tough to say what "a cloud of daggers" might refer to <em>other</em> than the power. This is definitely the strongest example; it seems very likely that the author did have Cloud of Daggers in mind.)</p><p></p><p>I did find one other reference to powers and terrain effects, in the PH, under How to Read a Power, "Zones": This is still kind of frustrating. Why not "difficult terrain or hindering terrain such as scorching fire"? And why only zones? There's no such language under "Conjurations". So would this not apply to a conjuration such as Storm Pillar? That seems odd.</p><p></p><p>All in all, I suspect that this is all an artifact of the order in which the rules were finalized and the books were written and edited. Difficult terrain was established early on. It's described in the PH, and has plenty of powers that explicitly create it and interact with it (like elven wild step). The other types of terrain were elaborated on later as Wyatt was working on encounter design. Finally, the rule about forced movement into hindering terrain was added late in the game, possibly as a "patch" when there were too many instant deaths during playtests resulting from people getting pushed off cliffs. (It's striking that this is maybe the closest thing left in 4e to "save or die", imagine if there was no save!) Of course this is all speculation on my part, but it seems to fit what's in the texts pretty well.</p><p></p><p>That's how it seems to me!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ryryguy, post: 5000137, member: 64945"] Ok... so, I really don't want to drag out this rules argument. I'd also be fine with option A, it seems playable and fun. But, I did review the rulebooks as suggested, so I might as well post what I found. After review, I still think it's ambiguous at best. There is no unambiguous, explicit statement (that I can find anyway) stating that squares with a damaging effect created by a power should be treated as hindering terrain. Pretty much all of the discussion of terrain in the DMG is geared towards how a DM should use it in constructing an encounter. Indeed, it's rather parallel to the discussion of monster roles: categorizations to help in encounter design rather than something to hang other rules off of. You could say that this is just a function of the fact that it appears in the "Encounter Settings" section. However, if powers were definitely meant to create terrain effects as a matter of course, I'd expect to see at least a little discussion of how that might come into play in encounter design, i.e., how to use a monster that has a power that creates hindering terrain. The majority of examples that appear are explicitly, unambiguously "things in the world" placed by the DM: "the low rock wall, or the crumbled statues in the dungeon room... a wide chasm... lava... etc." I found only two which seem like they could refer to power effect: "zones of magical darkness" (pg 62) and "a cloud of daggers" (pg 44). The first still seems quite ambiguous to me. The second is stronger, but still not completely clear cut. "the effect of Cloud of Daggers" would be clear cut. "a cloud of daggers" is not. (I will grant that it's tough to say what "a cloud of daggers" might refer to [I]other[/I] than the power. This is definitely the strongest example; it seems very likely that the author did have Cloud of Daggers in mind.) I did find one other reference to powers and terrain effects, in the PH, under How to Read a Power, "Zones": This is still kind of frustrating. Why not "difficult terrain or hindering terrain such as scorching fire"? And why only zones? There's no such language under "Conjurations". So would this not apply to a conjuration such as Storm Pillar? That seems odd. All in all, I suspect that this is all an artifact of the order in which the rules were finalized and the books were written and edited. Difficult terrain was established early on. It's described in the PH, and has plenty of powers that explicitly create it and interact with it (like elven wild step). The other types of terrain were elaborated on later as Wyatt was working on encounter design. Finally, the rule about forced movement into hindering terrain was added late in the game, possibly as a "patch" when there were too many instant deaths during playtests resulting from people getting pushed off cliffs. (It's striking that this is maybe the closest thing left in 4e to "save or die", imagine if there was no save!) Of course this is all speculation on my part, but it seems to fit what's in the texts pretty well. That's how it seems to me! [/QUOTE]
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