D&D 5E Dispel Magic and Arcana skill (or religion)

[Otterscrubber]

Seeing how my last thread on warlocks and repelling blast was such a hit I thought I'd post this question. When casting dispel magic and trying to dispel a spell higher than the level used to power the dispel magic spell it says that you must make an ability check using your casting ability vs 10+ the spell level you are trying to dispel. My question is can you apply your arcana (or religion) skill to this check? Normally in the books when you apply a skill to an ability check they will help you out by putting something like (arcana) next to the ability check. Seems to me that an arcane caster trying to dispel an arcane spell would be able to do this, but it is not explicitly stated in the spell description. Now because dispel magic uses different abilities and can have different flavors based on whether you are trying to dispel an arcane or divine I'm assuming they didn't do this and left it to our judgements. In my last session though my DM ruled that I cannot apply my arcana skill and I had a sad. I'm curious how others would rule on this.

 

[steeldragons]

I would say no, as well. Your ability check (Int.) is already being applied. Your Arcana ability is Intelligence, so you'd effectively be using/getting your Int. modifier twice...+ proficiency from Arcana?

Dispel Magic is, basically (in my mind/world) your magic trying to undo/beat/overwhelm the other guy's magic. You can [per the spell] use your intelligence to try to wrangle a way around/through the other guy's magic. That's fine. Makes sense. Works in world/story.

You want to try to count your Intelligence twice and add proficiency?

Nice try. But not at my table.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Seeing how my last thread on warlocks and repelling blast was such a hit I thought I'd post this question. When casting dispel magic and trying to dispel a spell higher than the level used to power the dispel magic spell it says that you must make an ability check using your casting ability vs 10+ the spell level you are trying to dispel. My question is can you apply your arcana (or religion) skill to this check?

This is just an ability check, rather than a skill check, so you don't get to add any benefit from one of your skills. I am fairly certain that Wizard Abjurers gain their proficiency bonus to Dispel Magic and Counterspell, and this is considered a significant class feature for them.

 

[thalmin]

I wouldn't allow the INT modifier twice, but possible the proficiency bonus if you are proficient in Arcana.

EDIT: Good catch [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION]. Therefore, no all around.

 

[Otterscrubber]

This is just an ability check, rather than a skill check, so you don't get to add any benefit from one of your skills. I am fairly certain that Wizard Abjurers gain their proficiency bonus to Dispel Magic and Counterspell, and this is considered a significant class feature for them.

There is no such thing as a "skill" check in 5e, just ability checks to which your skills may apply and thus allow you to add your proficiency bonus. Also no skill is tied to a specific ability, if you can make a case why that skill would apply in the given situation, it does not matter if it is a strength or Con check, you still get the proficiency bonus if it makes sense. Some skills logically lean towards one or more ability scores, but they are not tied to it is my understanding. I'm pretty sure the DMG even gives an example where in different situations a person could apply Athletics to either a Str or a Con check, as long as it made sense. So in this case I don't see why you would not be able to apply arcana skill to say ya, I should be able to get this bonus on this Intelligence check.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I wouldn't allow the INT modifier twice, but possible the proficiency bonus if you are proficient in Arcana.

EDIT: Good catch [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION]. Therefore, no all around.

That's exactly what I was implying, not to get the int bonus twice, but rather be allowed to add my proficiency bonus to the Int roll because I can't think of something more arcane based than dispelling and arcane spell with an arcane spell.

 

[Mirtek]

IMO the point is that it's meant to be difficult and uncertain. With a spellcasting ability score of 20 you have a 60% chance of dispelling a level 4 spell and a 35% chance to dispell a level 9 spell. If you want better than that you have to sacrifice a higher level spellslot. If you are allowed to add proficiency, the spell becomes much more potent, reliably swatting high level spells while only having to expend a 3rd level slot yourself.

 

[steeldragons]

Because you are already getting your intelligence bonus on this ability check...from the spell. You don't have, or rather, you are not entitled "extra/double" intelligence for this ability check just because you have an Arcana proficiency.

And, pretty much, as far as Arcana is concerned, the instances in which Intelligence would NOT be the ability to use are...few and far between...and casting Dispel Magic is not one of them.

You are attempting to rules lawyer your way into getting double your Intelligence to a roll to undo a magic more powerful than yourself (which, it could be argued just can't be done anyway. But the spell, by definition, allows you a chance.).

Some people don't mind this and find these kinds of things entertaining brainteasers or self-satisfying tests of cleverness for themselves to figure out how to "game the system." I am not one of those people. Nor do I have any patience or tolerance for it at my tables. So again, as far as I'm concerned, your DM made the "correct" call and at my table I'd make the same call. The answer is still "No."

 

[thalmin]

Look at the Abjurer. At 10th level he gains the ability to add his proficiency bonus to specifically Dispel Magic and Counterspell. Not until. And other wizards are not as good at abjuration spells as the Abjurer. So why should other wizards be able to add their proficiency bonus?

 

[Otterscrubber]

Because you are already getting your intelligence bonus on this ability check...from the spell. You don't have, or rather, you are not entitled "extra/double" intelligence for this ability check just because you have an Arcana proficiency.

And, pretty much, as far as Arcana is concerned, the instances in which Intelligence would NOT be the ability to use are...few and far between...and casting Dispel Magic is not one of them.

You are attempting to rules lawyer your way into getting double your Intelligence to a roll to undo a magic more powerful than yourself (which, it could be argued just can't be done anyway. But the spell, by definition, allows you a chance.).

Some people don't mind this and find these kinds of things entertaining brainteasers or self-satisfying tests of cleverness for themselves to figure out how to "game the system." I am not one of those people. Nor do I have any patience or tolerance for it at my tables. So again, as far as I'm concerned, your DM made the "correct" call and at my table I'd make the same call. The answer is still "No."

Not sure what you mean by trying to get my Int bonus twice, that's not what I was asking about. Skills are not tied to ability particular ability score and they don't allow you get any other bonus than your proficiency bonus. So I'm not 100% sure where you are getting this Int bonus x2 thing. I just wanted to know why I would not be allowed to add my proficiency bonus when making an ability check (any of them) that is rooted in an arcane reason. That's what skills are in 5e, if the skill applies to the ability check (whatever ability that may be), then you get to add your proficiency bonus to the ability check....period. It's not rules lawyering, at least I don't think so. Just clarification.