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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 9750111" data-attributes="member: 29398">Two words.  Party interdependence.Assuming the default style of play to be a group of characters going out on adventures (an assumption that doesn't seem too controversial) then doesn't it make sense to design in such a way as to encourage and support that style?If each character is good at a quarter of the things they can do, then put four of 'em together in the right combination and between them they're good at everything.That, and I'm quite fine with bigger parties than just four even if there's just four players."Most of the people most of the time" still isn't "everyone all the time", which seems to be what some want.That said, IME even when a character is mechanically inept in a situation (e.g. an Illusionist in a party facing a bunch of illusion-immune undead) its player still finds ways to participate in-character and have the character do things.Terminology issue, my bad.  When I say combat I usually default to melee; and a wizard who wants to start dropping artillery into melee combats won't be around for long once the survivors among his allies get to him. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Further, artillery can also be useful against structures.  Foes hiding in a wooden building?  Fireball it, and see how long they stay in there.It's also a question of defining each class' niche.  If for example divination spells could be entirely removed from arcane casters and given to divine casters, they then become part of the divine-casters' niche.  If charm-dominate effects could be removed from generic wizards and given solely to Illusionists, they become part of the Illusionsts' niche.  Lather rinse repeat until generic wizards are left with artillery and spot damage, buffs (e.g. Fly, Invisibility, etc.), and some oddball stuff like Identify at one end and Wish at the other.  And artillery becomes their niche; as such, Clerics lose spells like Flamestrike, Call Lightning, etc.Even with that, niche protection will never be perfect.  But here, perfect is the enemy of good enough, and it can still be made a lot stronger than it is right now. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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