Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Divine Archetypes
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6035987" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I like the 4e pantheon, though some of its elements - especially Melora and Avandra - don't do a lot for me, and I also think that Asmodeus, Bane and Tiamat are three gods trying to fill a conceptual space that really only has room for two.</p><p></p><p>But one thing I definitely do like about it, which goes to the question of what archetypes I would like to see, is its fusion of "adventuring" and "non-adventuring" domains into each god, so that (i) the whole pantheon, or at least a good chunk of it, actually sees play in a standard adventure-oriented campaign, yet (ii) the pantheon more-or-less covers the whole reach of human (and demi-human) endeavour in a reasonably plausible fashion.</p><p></p><p>Relating that to the OP's list, I would like to see the Healer be more like Pelor and less like the Franciscans (who don't really go in even for pacifying opponents, at least not in the D&D sense of pacification!), and I would like the Artisan to have a more overt adventuring role also: perhaps the god of arms and armour (given that these are forged items that are crucial for many adventurers), or (as per 4e) the god of community, which gives a kind of defender/protector role like Moradin.</p><p></p><p>4e actually breaks the Scholar into 4 gods: Ioun, Corellon, Vecna and Tharizdun, and in my game that has worked quite well. D&Dnext recognises the importance of secret knowledge in D&D setting and situation design via its "Forbidden Lore" skill, but that doesn't necessarily mean we need to split the Scholar into the different categories that 4e does. For example, a pantheon in which Ioun picked up magic from Corellon, and Avandra, Moradin and Erathis split art and music among themselves, would be different from the 4e one but not obviously worse.</p><p></p><p>Still, I think there is an argument for at least distinguishing the merely esoteric or learned scholar (Ioun, Corellon, even Erathis under a certain interpretation) from the more secretive or mad scholar (Vecna, Tharizdun). The friendly (if mysterious, absent-minded and sometimes evens scary) sage is a different D&D archetype from the raving mad lich or cultist.</p><p></p><p>I like the Crusader (Bahamut, Heironeous, Cuthbert - strong resonances with certain real-world medieval archetypes) and the Tempest (Kord, Thor). There is also room for the less inspired and more grimly determined warrior (Bane, Odin). In 4e Bane is also linked to government (tyranny - hence the overlap with Asmodeus), creating a nice counterpoint to Erathis, who reflects the more ideal rather than material aspect of government (law). But you could try and slice the warrior pie in different ways: Ares, for example, gives us a Warrior or Slayer archetype who is wild, like Thor and Kord, but without the tempest dimension, and closer to Bane than Thor or Kord with an absence of a sense of fair play and less of a "warfare as just a game or sport" approach. In 4e Hruggek is an exarch of Bane, but Hruggek could equally work as an exarch or aspect of a more brutish, murderous Ares-style war god.</p><p></p><p>There probably needs to be a Messenger or Traveller archetype. In 4e this is Avandra. I think I would like it better if the Messenger/Traveller was closer to Wagner's version of Odin in the Ring Cycle - grim and learned, rather than happy-go-lucky. The Traveller can also be a god of death, as Odin is, because death is often seen as a journey, and is expressly portrayed that way in D&D, with the soul travelling to other planes upon death.</p><p></p><p>In any event, I think there clearly does need to be a Death archetype, whether linked to Travel/Divination (as I've canvassed), or Fate (as in 4e) or even both (Istus, from Greyhwak, might be more interesting if she were developed a bit in this general direction).</p><p></p><p>There also probably has to be a Nature archetype, although perhaps that could be rolled into the Healer (plants, sun) and the Tempest (wind, storms, the seas). But even though I personally find Melora probably the least interesting of the 4e deities, a lot of people seem to like nature gods. One way to make a nature god more interesting, in my view, can be to link it back a bit to the Scholar, and the idea of knowledge of the elements and the inner workings of the natural world (for some reason I think of Greyhawk's Obad-Hai in this way, even though I'm not sure that he is presented as a scholarly god in the canonical texts).</p><p></p><p>Anyway, thanks to the OP for starting an interesting thread!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6035987, member: 42582"] I like the 4e pantheon, though some of its elements - especially Melora and Avandra - don't do a lot for me, and I also think that Asmodeus, Bane and Tiamat are three gods trying to fill a conceptual space that really only has room for two. But one thing I definitely do like about it, which goes to the question of what archetypes I would like to see, is its fusion of "adventuring" and "non-adventuring" domains into each god, so that (i) the whole pantheon, or at least a good chunk of it, actually sees play in a standard adventure-oriented campaign, yet (ii) the pantheon more-or-less covers the whole reach of human (and demi-human) endeavour in a reasonably plausible fashion. Relating that to the OP's list, I would like to see the Healer be more like Pelor and less like the Franciscans (who don't really go in even for pacifying opponents, at least not in the D&D sense of pacification!), and I would like the Artisan to have a more overt adventuring role also: perhaps the god of arms and armour (given that these are forged items that are crucial for many adventurers), or (as per 4e) the god of community, which gives a kind of defender/protector role like Moradin. 4e actually breaks the Scholar into 4 gods: Ioun, Corellon, Vecna and Tharizdun, and in my game that has worked quite well. D&Dnext recognises the importance of secret knowledge in D&D setting and situation design via its "Forbidden Lore" skill, but that doesn't necessarily mean we need to split the Scholar into the different categories that 4e does. For example, a pantheon in which Ioun picked up magic from Corellon, and Avandra, Moradin and Erathis split art and music among themselves, would be different from the 4e one but not obviously worse. Still, I think there is an argument for at least distinguishing the merely esoteric or learned scholar (Ioun, Corellon, even Erathis under a certain interpretation) from the more secretive or mad scholar (Vecna, Tharizdun). The friendly (if mysterious, absent-minded and sometimes evens scary) sage is a different D&D archetype from the raving mad lich or cultist. I like the Crusader (Bahamut, Heironeous, Cuthbert - strong resonances with certain real-world medieval archetypes) and the Tempest (Kord, Thor). There is also room for the less inspired and more grimly determined warrior (Bane, Odin). In 4e Bane is also linked to government (tyranny - hence the overlap with Asmodeus), creating a nice counterpoint to Erathis, who reflects the more ideal rather than material aspect of government (law). But you could try and slice the warrior pie in different ways: Ares, for example, gives us a Warrior or Slayer archetype who is wild, like Thor and Kord, but without the tempest dimension, and closer to Bane than Thor or Kord with an absence of a sense of fair play and less of a "warfare as just a game or sport" approach. In 4e Hruggek is an exarch of Bane, but Hruggek could equally work as an exarch or aspect of a more brutish, murderous Ares-style war god. There probably needs to be a Messenger or Traveller archetype. In 4e this is Avandra. I think I would like it better if the Messenger/Traveller was closer to Wagner's version of Odin in the Ring Cycle - grim and learned, rather than happy-go-lucky. The Traveller can also be a god of death, as Odin is, because death is often seen as a journey, and is expressly portrayed that way in D&D, with the soul travelling to other planes upon death. In any event, I think there clearly does need to be a Death archetype, whether linked to Travel/Divination (as I've canvassed), or Fate (as in 4e) or even both (Istus, from Greyhwak, might be more interesting if she were developed a bit in this general direction). There also probably has to be a Nature archetype, although perhaps that could be rolled into the Healer (plants, sun) and the Tempest (wind, storms, the seas). But even though I personally find Melora probably the least interesting of the 4e deities, a lot of people seem to like nature gods. One way to make a nature god more interesting, in my view, can be to link it back a bit to the Scholar, and the idea of knowledge of the elements and the inner workings of the natural world (for some reason I think of Greyhawk's Obad-Hai in this way, even though I'm not sure that he is presented as a scholarly god in the canonical texts). Anyway, thanks to the OP for starting an interesting thread! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Divine Archetypes
Top