Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Divine Challenge/Sanction with Invis
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Jurph" data-source="post: 4877825" data-attributes="member: 84577"><p><strong>Garthanos</strong>, I think you must be right. Ruling on intent-plus-availability would create an erratum something like this: "If the paladin is unavailable as a target, the marked condition ends."</p><p></p><p>The scenarios I outlined above would then have the following outcomes:</p><p></p><p>1) The paladin disappeared and then moved a significant distance (DM's call) away, and therefore there is no way that the creature could target the paladin. Probing attacks will cause no damage, but attacks that connect generate divine tactile feedback (ZAP) for striking the non-paladin. The monster becomes painfully aware of the absence of the paladin, and the sanction is lifted.</p><p></p><p>2) The paladin revealing himself makes him available as a target again, and even probing attacks would cause damage at this point. If the monster had already connected with a target and gotten zapped, the sanction condition would have already ended, and would not reappear.</p><p></p><p>3) ...but if the paladin was illusory, then as soon as the illusion is discovered (and assuming the paladin doesn't have a readied action to appear on the other side of the room) the paladin becomes unavailable as a target and the condition ends.</p><p></p><p>4) Probing attacks against the illusory paladin cause the monster no pain. If the monster rolls a 20 to hit, or passes a perception check, perhaps the illusion is dispelled, forcing case (3) above. I'd go with standard illusion rules here, but I don't know them off the top of my head.</p><p></p><p>5) Just as in case (1) above, the probing attacks cause no damage until they connect with a non-paladin target, but the players get a free ZAP the first time the monster connects with a non-paladin target.</p><p></p><p>6) Converse of case (1) above - the monster knows that the nearby invisible target is not the paladin, but there's no evidence as to the paladin's location. Paladin becomes unavailable as a target and the monster is free to attack.</p><p></p><p>7) The monster <em>believes</em> that the nearby target is not a paladin, and may therefore <em>believe</em> that the paladin is unavailable as a target, but the players are being so damned creative that I'd give them this one - the monster's next attack will cause Divine Sanction to deal damage <em>even though the monster believes itself to be free from the effect</em>[sup]1[/sup]. I might even rule that the monster's defenses were lowered (believing itself to be free from the effect) and so it takes max damage from trying to strike the invisible-paladin-which-seems-to-not-be-an-invisible-paladin. I would also rule that the ZAP is tactile feedback that makes the monster aware of the ruse, though. So the players get one solid ZAP at max damage and a few extra XP for a creative trap.</p><p></p><p><strong>babinro</strong>, you really helped me puzzle out this last step when you said "let the players have their fun." It's a game not a law school exam, and the players' enjoyment of the story is what matters. Trickery on this scale and complexity is why we still have legends about Loki and Odysseus -- if the players can pull it off, the monster deserves to get burned!</p><p></p><p>Footnote 1: I know the PHB says that monsters are always aware of the conditions on them, but in this situation I would overrule it on the grounds that the monster's awareness of the situation is too muddled.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jurph, post: 4877825, member: 84577"] [b]Garthanos[/b], I think you must be right. Ruling on intent-plus-availability would create an erratum something like this: "If the paladin is unavailable as a target, the marked condition ends." The scenarios I outlined above would then have the following outcomes: 1) The paladin disappeared and then moved a significant distance (DM's call) away, and therefore there is no way that the creature could target the paladin. Probing attacks will cause no damage, but attacks that connect generate divine tactile feedback (ZAP) for striking the non-paladin. The monster becomes painfully aware of the absence of the paladin, and the sanction is lifted. 2) The paladin revealing himself makes him available as a target again, and even probing attacks would cause damage at this point. If the monster had already connected with a target and gotten zapped, the sanction condition would have already ended, and would not reappear. 3) ...but if the paladin was illusory, then as soon as the illusion is discovered (and assuming the paladin doesn't have a readied action to appear on the other side of the room) the paladin becomes unavailable as a target and the condition ends. 4) Probing attacks against the illusory paladin cause the monster no pain. If the monster rolls a 20 to hit, or passes a perception check, perhaps the illusion is dispelled, forcing case (3) above. I'd go with standard illusion rules here, but I don't know them off the top of my head. 5) Just as in case (1) above, the probing attacks cause no damage until they connect with a non-paladin target, but the players get a free ZAP the first time the monster connects with a non-paladin target. 6) Converse of case (1) above - the monster knows that the nearby invisible target is not the paladin, but there's no evidence as to the paladin's location. Paladin becomes unavailable as a target and the monster is free to attack. 7) The monster [i]believes[/i] that the nearby target is not a paladin, and may therefore [i]believe[/i] that the paladin is unavailable as a target, but the players are being so damned creative that I'd give them this one - the monster's next attack will cause Divine Sanction to deal damage [i]even though the monster believes itself to be free from the effect[/i][sup]1[/sup]. I might even rule that the monster's defenses were lowered (believing itself to be free from the effect) and so it takes max damage from trying to strike the invisible-paladin-which-seems-to-not-be-an-invisible-paladin. I would also rule that the ZAP is tactile feedback that makes the monster aware of the ruse, though. So the players get one solid ZAP at max damage and a few extra XP for a creative trap. [b]babinro[/b], you really helped me puzzle out this last step when you said "let the players have their fun." It's a game not a law school exam, and the players' enjoyment of the story is what matters. Trickery on this scale and complexity is why we still have legends about Loki and Odysseus -- if the players can pull it off, the monster deserves to get burned! Footnote 1: I know the PHB says that monsters are always aware of the conditions on them, but in this situation I would overrule it on the grounds that the monster's awareness of the situation is too muddled. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Divine Challenge/Sanction with Invis
Top