Divine Spellcraft vs Arcane Spellcraft

[anest1s]

Is a Wizard able to identify a cure light wounds cast by a cleric?

My DM thinks not, because it is irrelevant how many ranks he has on spellcraft, it doesn't make sense to know what the spell is. He tells it only makes sense to know what you need to counterspell it (school etc), but not the actual spell itself.

Also a non-caster with spellcraft is useless.

My other DM thinks that even a wizard can't identify a fireball, if it isn't in his known spells yet.

When I DM I just let the player look how the spell works on ph

Anyway, the first DM already told me "if it isn't that way, consider it a houserule" but maybe I have hopes with the second DM.


Are there any RAW parts that I could quote that clearly show they are wrong?
Is there a practical problem with this method so big they won't be able to ignore?
Or maybe I am wrong? (Ok I don't believe I am, but I had to ask, right? )

 

[shagadm]

First of all I didn't say you can NOT identify a cure light spell. I said that a wizard or any other spellcaster that does NOT have that particular spell in his CLASS spell list, can NOT know details... DETAILS... about the spell. What`s details you ask? Well, the cure lights spell is not a good example but I will try to use it as an example.

You don't know how many HP it can cure (1d8+ caster lvl, max +5) and you don't know it has spell resistance. You do know that it is a 1st lvl conjuration spell of the healing type and that it uses positive energy to heal. That`s all. Unfortunately every spellcaster player I have meet so far (including you), will simple look up the spell in the books and find its details (metagaming??). For simple spells like cure light it doesn't matter so much to me but for more complicated spells it does. Thats the reason I no longer tell the player the name of the spell but only the spell level, school, subschool and type of the spell, IF he does NOT have it in his class spell lists.

Finally I admitted from the start that this whole thing is a HOUSE RULE of mine. I believe it is based on RAI and RAW but I admit I might be wrong and that's why I introduce it as a house rule. I don't think it cripples casters, because you can still counter it if you succeed on your spellcraft check (if the spell is not on your class spell list, then you probably don't have it prepared to counter it with spell vs spell and you will need to use dispell vs spell, so the informations I give are enough) and in any case the NPCs use the same house rule for your spells so it balances out.

Edit-1: As for the other DM that doesn't let you identify a spell that is on your class list if its not on your known spells. I do believe he is crippling casters with limited known spells like sorcerers but if he states its a house rule and not the raw then you cant do much other that tell him you think its an unfair house rule.

Edit-2: A non-caster with spellcraft is not useless. He can identify everything he needs to counterspell an incoming caster if he has a wand of dispell and can use it. He can also use the information he gets from a spellcraft to gain some bonuses. For example if he identifies an illusion school spell he gets a bonus on his will save. Other than those benefits I don't know what more could a non-caster ask? what more would he gain, in the few seconds he gets from the time he identifies the spell till the time it takes effect, if he knew that a scorching ray does 4d6 of fire damage, has to hit with a range touch attack, has SR but no save, the caster can have one ray per four levels beyond 3rd lvl but all targets must be within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously. And really, could someone that will never cast this spell (unless he multyclass), know all that information??

 

[anest1s]

I still want to know what the spells I see are, and I don't care about what the NPCs know. So well, I would be happy if I could change your mind


Also, if I spell is changed by metamagic feats, like energy substitution, is it possible to know that the spell is different?

 

[VariSami]

I kind of like shagadm's houserule. It does make sense flavor-wise and keep metagaming on a leash (unless the details are sufficient to lead to a very limited group of spells).

Then again, this is coming from a person who thinks it's a good idea to have players not know their current HP amount by keeping the amount of damage done secret. It's merely hinted at in the descriptions of the attack action. The reason is simple: metagaming is rampant around here and so is relentless charging at anything you come across.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

By RAW, Spellcraft skill should not discriminate between Divine and Arcane.

It makes sense to do so, however that falls under houserule.

 

[Dandu]

I kind of like shagadm's houserule. It does make sense flavor-wise and keep metagaming on a leash (unless the details are sufficient to lead to a very limited group of spells).

Then again, this is coming from a person who thinks it's a good idea to have players not know their current HP amount by keeping the amount of damage done secret. It's merely hinted at in the descriptions of the attack action. The reason is simple: metagaming is rampant around here and so is relentless charging at anything you come across.

I don't even my players know what class they are.

 

[VariSami]

I don't even my players know what class they are.

"I... cast a spell?" "Can't." "Do I have a weapon? Is it big or small?" "Roll Spot to see. No, wait: I'll roll in secret for you."

Yeah, it's kind of extreme to implement such house rules. But fact is: fights should become relatively scarce with that and maybe players will remember that other possibilities exist in later games. Also, no needing to listen to how someone should heal his character with the player whining OOC and not as the character itself. Or (long-winded) calculations about whether or not you can still take 3 average hits before regrouping.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I don't even my players know what class they are.

If I find out I'm in a schoolgirl outfit, I know you've made me a Warlock.

 

[Jimlock]

We play spellcraft another way.

If you are an Arcane-caster you only get to use spellcraft on arcane spells.
If you are a Divine-caster you only get to use spellcraft on divine spells.
If you are none of the above and still have spellcraft, you choose whether it applies on Arcane or Divine spells.

Clearly a House Rule and even more strict that shagadm's.

I never liked the idea of wizards/clerics understanding anything about divine magic/arcane magic.

I consider them as totally different.

 

[Dandu]

"Vaxis, that priest just obscured our vision with some sort of misty cloud. Can you tell what spell that was?"

"No, good Sir Froderic, but he appears to be shooting us with ancient Faerunian laser beams. Let me cast Obscuring Mist to provide concealment for our position."