Divine Spontaneous Caster (was: Divine Feat)

[Trainz]

O.k.

Here is a proposed solution to the need of some players (including me) to have a divine spontaneous caster. It is very simple, a single feat, and I think balanced (for now).

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DIVINE SPONTANEOUS CASTING [GENERAL]
Upon taking this feat, a cleric can spontaneously cast his divine spells.
Prerequisites: Eschew Materials, cleric 1st level, charisma 15.
Benefit: Clerics who take this feat do not need to pray for their spells, they can spontaneously cast any 0 to 3rd level spell just like a sorceror can. This ability comes at a price however. Clerics loose acces to their domains (as well as the powers associated with these domains) and the bonus spell slot associated with those domains. Their ability to turn undead is unaffected.
This feat must not be taken at 1st level, but the following happens when it is taken: the spell progression is delayed for one level. This means that a 1st level cleric does not cast spells yet, and a second level cleric has the spells of a 1st level cleric (although his caster level is 2nd). Effectively, only humans can become spontaneous divine casters at 1st level (other races can do so at 3rd level, when they gain a second feat).
Special: A cleric can take this feat multiple times. Each time, the next 3 spell levels become spontaneous (4 through 6 the second time, and 7 through 9 the third time).

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Here is why I think it's reasonable: his spell selection is delayed (somewhat like a sorceror), the prerequisites are somewhat steep (not hugely so), the cost has an edge (loss of domains), and given that clerics already have the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells, the gain is not THAT great.

Also consider that in order for a high level cleric to take full advantage of spontaneous casting, it will have cost him 4 feats. Not too shabby when an 18th level cleric has 7 or 8 feats in all (that's half of them)...

Fire away guys, I'm all ears !

 

[Yair]

By robbing the cleric of his domains and domain powers, you are removing what little difference sets a cleric of Wee Jas from that of Pelor. I don't like that at all.
I personally would prefer allowing the cleric to spontanously cast his domain spells, thus INCREASING the difference. I think this is also more reasonable, as it means the spontanous cleric still has a very small list of spells to choose from (about 3 from each level - far less than the sorcerer, even); of course this is in addition to being able to prepare virtually any spell.
Being able to spontanously cast any spell from the HUGE cleric list is, I believe, quite powerful. Although at 4 feats, I would allow it.

Basially, I think your idea is balanced, but lacks in flavor. All spontanous clerics are very much alike. If that is the flavor you wish to convey - than I see no fault in it.

 

[Scion]

It may be just as easy at first level to decide whether they are going to be spontaneous casters or not.

If not then do them exactly the same way as is written.

If so then change their progression to that of a sorcerer, take away all of the clerics spell list, give them the domains of the god (say 4), and then let them spontaneously cast from these.

I think that'd solve the flavor option while giving you the ability to spontaneously cast, while still not being overpowered. (Personally I would give them 2 domains at first and an extra domain every 5 levels)

Some gods may or may not allow this option.

If all of the clerics in the world had to use this option then it would definately make for interesting times.

'We really need this spell cast, but only clerics of god X can cast it. We must find one of those and work him to our cause.' Quests abound

or you could use this..lol
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?t=65058

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

Has anyone seen the Favored Soul from the Mini's Book that WOTC released?

It is an interesting version of a divine spontaneous caster. Works a bit like the sorcerer does for arcane spells.

 

[the Jester]

No offense, but- holy crap is this overpowered.

The main balancing point of a sorcerer is the tiny list of spells known. This does't even glance at that. Clerics able to cast from the whole list on the fly, even if just low level spells at first (and let's face it, every cleric ought to take this feat multiple times) are just insane.

I'd maybe let them choose spells known like a sorcerer, with the first spell of any spell level being a domain spell from their deity. (Let them choose from all of their deity's domains for their spells known, maybe.) But as it is, I see the cleric (already pretty much the most powerful class) growing yet stronger.

I don't think the level delay alone is enough.

 

[Phaedrus]

Be sure to look at the Evangelist from Dragon a few issues ago (one of the 3.5 class update features).

Sorcerer's spells known & spells per day. Get 2 domains at 1st level (powers and spells known). Gain domains every few levels (not powers, just spells known). So they end up with more spells known than a sorcerer, but not that many more. And they lose Turn Undead ability.

(And don't forget Elements of Magic from EN Publishing...)

 

[Trainz]

Thanks for all (and diverse) input.

However, I must disagree on certain points, mainly the one that Jester makes. I understand your concern, but IME, it is not so. I'll explain...

The spells that a Sorceror has access to are more powerful in general in combat situations, while many clerical spells are defensive in nature. One cannot compare the two classes on an equal footing. The Cleric doesn't have a 3rd level spell that can deal 10d6 damage in a 20 ft. radius.

Again IME, it doesn't happen a lot that a high-level cleric is missing a spell for a certain situation. Very rarely must he tell the party "Hold on guys... let me spend 24 hours, and I'll have the spell ready". IMC, cleric players have a good feel for their spell selection. Most clerics leave a high-level spell slot or two open so that they can memorise in 15 minutes any spell (p. 180 PHB Spell Slots).

The cleric already has all access to all clerical spells. Wizards and sorcerors only have a few. This is already balanced in the game system by the potency of the arcane spells. It shouldn't be a big factor to consider when evaluating a spontaneous divine caster.

Lets say you play the divine caster just like the sorceror, with the ability to cast any Cure spell, lets create a 6th level one:

Spells known:
0: Detect magic, Light, Detect poison, Read magic, Resistance, Guidance, Mending
1st: Divine favor, Sanctuary, Magic weapon, Shield of faith
2nd: Hold person, Restoration lesser
3rd: Magic vestment

Who would play the above cleric ? Not me. He would be lacking so many necessary spells that sooner or later are needed for a typical adventuring party. It is not a viable class.

If you make a spontaneous cleric, he must retain his list of spells, or no-one will even consider playing one. The ability to spontaneously cast a spell is minor compared to the number of spells known to a given caster.

Given all this, do you still think it is such an unbalancing feature ? I agree that the mechanics might be adjusted a bit (which is why I created that thread in the first place), but overpowering isn't what jumps in my mind when I consider all factors.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

I ran a campaign with spontaneous-casting clerics. I won't get into the mechanics here but I do want to point out something that I think you should be aware of regardless. Silence becomes extremely overpowered if you can cast it spontaneously. While it's a useful spell, there's normally a limit to how many times one is going to prepare it. If you don't have to, you can use it on the fly as a way to stop most spellcasters from casting by readying a Silence to be cast not on the caster, but nearby, thus allowing no saving throw, if she or he starts casting. Sure, the caster can then move away, but losing that first spell can be a killer. Sure, there's the Silent Spell feat, but how many know that and how many spells are prepared with that feat?

My solution was simply to make casting Silence take 1 round instead of a standard action. While that eliminated its use as a way to stop enemy casters with a readied action, it was still used plenty and found very useful since it could be cast on the fly. Another option would be to allow a save if an unwilling creature is in the area of effect, even if the spell isn't centered on her or him, although in this case you have to decide the consequence of a succesful save--does the entire spell fail or is just that one person immune somehow?

 

[Scion]

Silence becomes extremely overpowered if you can cast it spontaneously.

so do you change it for sorcerers as well? for people who have to memorize it?

No offense, but- holy crap is this overpowered.

except that you dont get to choose your spells (more or less, the list is predetermined), they tend to be less combat offensive, and your selection isnt anywhere near as extensive as a normal cleric. These are all big hinderances, but the flavor tends to make up for it somewhat. I think it works out very nicely

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

so do you change it for sorcerers as well? for people who have to memorize it?

No class other than cleric has to memorize (prepare) Silence. It isn't on the sorcerer list, though. The only other core class that can cast it is the bard, but I don't have bards in my campaign. Bards of course cast spontaneously, so one could ask--if it's okay for bards to spontaneously cast Silence, why wouldn't it be okay for clerics as well? Like I said, I don't use bards, but I suppose that the bard's spellcasting ability is limited enough and the niche he or she fills small enough that allowing them to ready Silence against enemy casters at will is balanced for them. The designers gave bards the ability to cast Silence spontaneously and presumably felt it appropriate in the context of the class overall.

Clerics, meanwhile, have many more spell slots, get access to 2nd level spells sooner, and are arguably not intended to be able to go Silencing casters constantly and easily. We at least have to wonder about the implications since, as designed, clerics who want to use Silence to ready against casters with great frequency are supposed to make the hard choice of what spells not to prepare to make room for them.

Perhaps there are a slieu of other spells for which this type argument can be made, but Silence was the one that jumped out at me. I worried about Dispel Magic for a bit, but my players convinced me that it's balanced even as a spontaneous cleric spell because it's not cheap (3rd level) and is not guaranteed success (a dispel check applies, whereas the Silence trick can be pulled off without nary a saving throw).