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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Salthorae" data-source="post: 3413387" data-attributes="member: 1095">How else should I determine what is balanced or not? All classes/PrC's should balance, the whole POINT of 3.x was balance wasn't it? It's not my fault that, like Brehobit said, Arcane Trickster is underpowered. Things should be balance in relation first to core classes (of which Rogue and Cleric are a part). If a PrC'd character is balanced vs. core classes, then I could care less if he is balanced vs. other PrC's...These are true in the same way that Cleric vs. Wizard's BAB and HD are true, cleric wins both times. As for Entry Level of AT, I've always thought 1: that it's too high, and 2: that AT is the weakest (next to Duelist) PrC.Comments in []'sLevel 1: Ranged Legerdemain 1/day vs. Surprise for the Dead -- huge win for DT - [I agree, but it's NOT huge. slight win I say due to the (still) limited usage]Level 3: Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day vs. Trap Guidance -- tie [Agreed]Level 5: Ranged Legerdemain 2/day vs. Domain Flexibility -- huge win for DT. [I still say - all it is, is a bonus feat from Complete Divine]By this you're talking about the Trickery Domain, not really Chaos or Luck. And really by this you mean Invisibility and Time Stop, maybe Poly Any Object? Those last two depend on your build, and if you build for 9th level divine spells you can miracle ANY wizard's spell (8th level or lower) once you get there anyway. If anything the AT has the advantage there because there is no "Limited Miracle" spell to mimic wizard/sorc spells earlier.Level 7: Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day vs. Hide in Plain Sight -- "free" here means "without having to take a sucky level of Shadowdancer, which otherwise one would never ever do". Huge win for the DT. -[Personally I like Shadowdancer's for gameplay, this is the only ability of the DT that I would consider removing/changing, but even then I don't think it's a deal breaker as the way it's stated is So the character still needs cover or concealment, they can just make a hide check while being observed. Shadowdancers can hide even without Cover OR concealment if they are w/n 10' of a shadowLevel 9: Ranged Legerdemain 3/day vs. Slippery Mind -- strong, and unnecessary. The class grants a good Will save, as does the dude's Cleric levels, AND he's going to have a high Wisdom bonus ... it's just way too much. Huge win for the DT. - [An extra save (at the same DC) after one round of whatever the initial Enchantment did working is "way too much"?][True, and I think that leaves it underpowered/balance from a base class][So Sneak attack is the only thing a rogue does? Hmm, and here I thought those high skill points were for a reason. And they have ability to evade AoE spells with little to no damage period (improved evasion), and the ability to find/remove & dodge traps if they do set them off was an ability]So your hypothetical AT REALLY can't cast Mage armor or even Greater Mage armor? Maybe Shield? Because I'm pretty sure a core built DT couldn't, so really that's just keeping them at the same AC's...Umm, you mean at 7th level right? And gravestrike is only a 1st level spell so you could already do that many times per day. I still contend that unless you've got some Uber stats your duration on the Surprise Undead ability is only going to be 1-2 rds. So it's either the same duration as gravestrike or double, all for spending a Turn attempt. Alternately you could just take Divine Metamagic (Extend Spell) and accomplish the same thing (with Extra Turning from any source it's probably the same # of times per day too!) Singular, you only get the Slippery Mind.Huh? Last time I checked the Racial Substitution levels only allow you to substitue for the class for which they are named. SO you'd still have to take Levels of Rogue to take the Halfling Rogue substitution  levels, you can't take Halfling Rogue levels and somehow gain the necessary (domains) spellcasting from it either. Halfling Druid under spells says "As per Druid Class" or something to that effect. In addition those Levels give you better Ranged SA, but not melee, so I'm not sure how that would work for PrC's with SA requirements. Regardless you still have to be a Rogue(Halfling) 3 to get to the +2d6 sneak attack as the substitution levels are 1,3,10. Not 1,2... You'd have to still be rog 3/Cle 3 to qualify for DT...</blockquote>

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