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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 7397672" data-attributes="member: 45197">Hiya!Fair enough, different strokes and all that right? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I disagree with the first part, but agree with the last. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I have found that in my experience it makes for a better game if the players all know and feel like their choices make the most difference. When a DM 'builds to their capabilities', he's basically stacking the deck in the PC's favour. If you are doing a one-shot, then yes...tailor to the PC's because everyone knows that it's a one-shot adventure and nothing really matters other than rolling dice and having fun AT THE MOMENT. Everyone knows that and accepts it. But for a long-lasting campaign...this "building to the PC's" has done nothing but hurt the amount of enjoyment the players and DM have. Notice I said "enjoyment". I see that as more important than just the more "instant gratification" idea of what "fun" is. A group of players (every group I've had over my time as a DM) has shown me that "fun" wears off. Yes, it's "fun" to play 18th level guys and go through the Keep on the Borderlands...once, for an hour or two. It is "fun" to play a group of non-humans who want to set up traps to repel those murderous adventurers. It is "fun" to get in battles, roll dice, and generally kick ass and take a couple points of damage...for an hour or two. But over the course of 40-odd 4 or 5 hour sessions over the course of a year, it would get boring. At least that's been my experience. YMMV.Hmmm...nope. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Not in my experience. In my experience this leads to the "I'm a special snowflake and everything should be created for ME". One of these in a group is bad enough...but half a dozen? ...shoot me now... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Y'see, when a DM builds for the PC's, he's basically saying "Don't worry about anything. I'll only put you up against challenges you can handle, and you will always get stuff you need or want. If you accidentally bite off more than you can chew, or the dice shun you, there will be a way to escape or otherwise not die. I'll make sure to pre-warn anyone of a game that might hurt your character in a permanent way, because I know you think that is not fun". ... ... ... And DM'ing or playing in such a group is most decidedly "not fun" in my book.I would reword that sentence to: "The DM has ultimate control in his campaign. The DM determines the make-up of his campaign world and can do or create anything needed. The DM has the responsibility to make his campaign world believable and it should contain a logical consistency of it's own reality. A well written, detailed, and described campaign will bring fairness and long-term enjoyment to both the DM and his players".In my version, the end result of a DM placing the campaign world/setting FIRST allows the Players to make logical choices based on what they want to play. If a DM is running a Dark Sun type campaign, and a player chooses to play a Half-Giant that needs 4 gallons of water a day...but the DM always makes sure that there is somewhere to refill water skins, or the HG PC finds a 'broken' decanter of endless water that just happens to only produce 4 gallons of water a day, and every underground cave or dungeon has 20' wide by 25' high corridors...that is bad. It makes the players choice of a Half Giant kinda 'pointless'; they have all the great stuff of being one, without any of the big drawbacks. When the HG PC dies or is retired...and now the decanter breaks some more (now only producing 1 gallon a day), and dungeons are now 10' by 12' corridors, it causes the Players to think "Oh...I get it. The DM wants us to live and not have a hard time, because difficult things that go against us isn't "fun" I guess". That is, IMO, pretty much the death knell of a group.I'm NOT saying that you would do such blatantly bad DM'ing calls, but I am trying to get a point across; Just because a PC dies, doesn't mean the Player isn't or didn't have fun getting there.Ahh...that old bugaboo. The "But now the story is ruined!" idea. This is one mindset that I just never have understood. I remember all the advertisements for D&D that used an awful lot of "if's", "will you", and "can you". Reading the rules reinforced the "It's your game, your story, your fate" vibe all throughout them. So from my perspective, if a group of level 1's TPK, then that is just part of the story. The story hasn't ended in any way. A campaign is an ongoing series of stories...some end in heroics, some end in riches, and some just end up with the PC's becoming the 'dungeon dressing' (ever wonder where the human leg the orcs are cooking, or where the evil sorcerer got that skull to use as a candle holder?....yeah...PC's... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ). Ever hear the ever popular "So, you are heading into the Black Dungeon of Woe? I wish you luck, my lords and ladies. Many have entered and very, very few have returned to tell the tale...".  Well, just because the adventurers that just wandered into it were PC's doesn't mean that they should 'automatically' or even 'most probably' survive. Maybe THEY are just part of that majority that never return. Besides, when you get a TPK, and the new PC's talk to that guy in the bar and he says "The Black Dungeon of Woe? Hhehe... Not more than two weeks ago a small band much like yours now ventured in...not one of them human. Haven't seen them since. Too bad, that elf girl was fine on the eyes! Maybe she still lives? Captured? Ahh...an old man can dream. I don't suggest you go there. Nothing but loss and sorrow". ... ... ... The Players now feel a part of an ongoing story. They are now part of the worlds history. There is an instant sense of continuity, time and reinforcement that the world isn't there for them to "win".A lot of "story based" games would fit this. To each their own, as I said in the beginning. But to me, D&D has always been about challenges. About consequences for your actions. It's about trying to win...not assuming you will win (re: not die). It's about taking a character, boldly exploring the unknown, and testing their mettle. The Players get to use their imagination to overcome situations, be they RP'ing, puzzle solving, or combat; it's the PLAYERS that determine that. A DM who is "building a story and adventure so the PC's can be heroic and win" is basically missing the entire point of an RPG (well, at least "D&D", imho). I'd rather hear a story I've never heard before then hear yet another retelling of Hoard of the Dragon Queen but with different PC's; same set up, same factions, same events, same ending. Yuk. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />I think your idea of "fair" is different from mine. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Fair to me is "Expectation of Opportunity"...not "Expectation of Outcome".^_^Paul L. Ming</blockquote>

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