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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8162249" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Alright, this thread has moved at friggin' light speed, so I'm only going to respond to people that quoted me for now. We'll see if I can keep up later.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's kind of intended. Change requires adaptation. Adaptation is a vital DM skill. Players always provide a source of change, but becoming too comfortable with too many unchanged world elements seems a real risk for this style.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Considering "the DM failed to inform the player" was the point, I don't see how that's "twisted" at all. Literally the entire point was what to do when this sort of breakdown DOES happen. Because, despite the protests that no one here would do such a thing, I <em>have</em> seen it happen. Personally. DMs that think "like Lord of the Rings" means "gritty survival," or who say "inspired by Greek Myth" when they mean "inspired by Greek <em>tragedy</em>" specifically. And these were <em>good</em> DMs, mind--ones that were not acting in bad faith. They literally just didn't understand that what they <em>meant</em> by their seemingly-specific description, and what could be <em>understood</em> from it, could be pretty different.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Perhaps it did not, but the overall tone of the thread has pretty specifically been about the <em>start</em> of games, and more importantly, if this DID happen for just some random 3-session interval, <em>it is trivially obvious that the player is being petulant.</em> When you have a choice between interpreting someone's intentionally hypothetical question in such a way that makes it interesting and not obvious to solve, or completely trivial and obvious, <em>maybe</em> don't take the trivial interpretation?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Does this mean Alice has some kind of responsibility toward Bob? Because that's kind of the point here, asking whether Bob is being reasonable to expect certain things from Alice because of her choice to take up the DM role. In particular with that last bit: can Bob expect Alice to accept him re-writing his character (at least mechanically, even if not narratively)?</p><p></p><p>You may not be terribly surprised to hear that I don't have a particularly high view of the Forgotten Realms as a setting, and have been continuously frustrated with how fixated the community seems to be upon it.</p><p></p><p>As for the rest: Sure, but I see <em>the whole series of books</em> as one campaign. It's <em>relatively</em> rare to have more than, say, two or three completely distinct epic-length stories all set in one singular world <em>that is so tightly defined that nothing unknown could lie beyond the horizon</em>. Which was a key point from the previous thread; we're not just talking about a world, we're talking about an ultimately <em>closed</em> world where every location of relevance is already so well-defined that any new worldbuilding would break things, every culture is so fully-developed that the (player-side) discovery of a species they'd never heard of before would derail the world, and every history and horizon is so well-known (by the DM, at least) that it's not possible to add/remove/modify anything without severely damaging narrative consistency. Few authors ever define their worlds so thoroughly--<em>even FR's authors</em>, both at the module level and the novel level.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, I grant that. I could potentially see squeezing ten years total out of the world I've got now (we're at about two years now, so two five-year games in total seems reasonable). But that's in part because so much of it has very light definition, such that going there or living there would be a new discovery for everyone, including me. But given how precisely, comprehensively, and interconnectedly you've explicitly said your world is, I just can't imagine there being <em>enough</em> things to fill 20+ years of gaming. I have a pretty active imagination, and I guarantee you I couldn't have imagined all the stuff to make even three years of playable game for the world <em>I actually run</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I would have not put the word in all-caps, then, but fair. But "request" or "ask for" seems appropriate, or "challenge" if you wanted to emphasize the "pushing back against a perceived reversal" angle.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, the whole point of claiming that one's power is absolute is that you <em>don't</em> have to listen to any questions. That's literally the idea behind the divine right of kings and such. E.g. from Wikipedia: "<strong>Absolute monarchy</strong><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_monarchy#cite_note-1" target="_blank">[1]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_monarchy#cite_note-2" target="_blank">[2]</a> (or <strong>absolutism</strong> as doctrine) is a form of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy" target="_blank">monarchy</a> in which the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch" target="_blank">monarch</a> holds supreme <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocracy" target="_blank">autocratic</a> authority, principally not being restricted by written laws, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislature" target="_blank">legislature</a>, or customs.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_monarchy#cite_note-Harris2009-3" target="_blank">[3]</a>" (All emphasis and links in original.) That seems like a pretty cut-and-dried statement that nothing limits the exercise of that authority, hence the mention of "customs" in addition to formal limits like laws and legislatures.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In general, it is understood that these rebellions have been proof that absolute power doesn't actually exist in the first place, not that it is given by anyone to anyone. (Because by being given, it can be taken away, and is thus not absolute.) Power that can be so revoked is not absolute.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Alright. What happens if the entire group is either (explicitly) ambivalent, or also combat-positive? Are there any valid expectations Bob might have of Alice? Does Alice have any responsibilities to Bob, or the group at large, because of their request?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8162249, member: 6790260"] Alright, this thread has moved at friggin' light speed, so I'm only going to respond to people that quoted me for now. We'll see if I can keep up later. That's kind of intended. Change requires adaptation. Adaptation is a vital DM skill. Players always provide a source of change, but becoming too comfortable with too many unchanged world elements seems a real risk for this style. Considering "the DM failed to inform the player" was the point, I don't see how that's "twisted" at all. Literally the entire point was what to do when this sort of breakdown DOES happen. Because, despite the protests that no one here would do such a thing, I [I]have[/I] seen it happen. Personally. DMs that think "like Lord of the Rings" means "gritty survival," or who say "inspired by Greek Myth" when they mean "inspired by Greek [I]tragedy[/I]" specifically. And these were [I]good[/I] DMs, mind--ones that were not acting in bad faith. They literally just didn't understand that what they [I]meant[/I] by their seemingly-specific description, and what could be [I]understood[/I] from it, could be pretty different. Perhaps it did not, but the overall tone of the thread has pretty specifically been about the [I]start[/I] of games, and more importantly, if this DID happen for just some random 3-session interval, [I]it is trivially obvious that the player is being petulant.[/I] When you have a choice between interpreting someone's intentionally hypothetical question in such a way that makes it interesting and not obvious to solve, or completely trivial and obvious, [I]maybe[/I] don't take the trivial interpretation? Does this mean Alice has some kind of responsibility toward Bob? Because that's kind of the point here, asking whether Bob is being reasonable to expect certain things from Alice because of her choice to take up the DM role. In particular with that last bit: can Bob expect Alice to accept him re-writing his character (at least mechanically, even if not narratively)? You may not be terribly surprised to hear that I don't have a particularly high view of the Forgotten Realms as a setting, and have been continuously frustrated with how fixated the community seems to be upon it. As for the rest: Sure, but I see [I]the whole series of books[/I] as one campaign. It's [I]relatively[/I] rare to have more than, say, two or three completely distinct epic-length stories all set in one singular world [I]that is so tightly defined that nothing unknown could lie beyond the horizon[/I]. Which was a key point from the previous thread; we're not just talking about a world, we're talking about an ultimately [I]closed[/I] world where every location of relevance is already so well-defined that any new worldbuilding would break things, every culture is so fully-developed that the (player-side) discovery of a species they'd never heard of before would derail the world, and every history and horizon is so well-known (by the DM, at least) that it's not possible to add/remove/modify anything without severely damaging narrative consistency. Few authors ever define their worlds so thoroughly--[I]even FR's authors[/I], both at the module level and the novel level. Sure, I grant that. I could potentially see squeezing ten years total out of the world I've got now (we're at about two years now, so two five-year games in total seems reasonable). But that's in part because so much of it has very light definition, such that going there or living there would be a new discovery for everyone, including me. But given how precisely, comprehensively, and interconnectedly you've explicitly said your world is, I just can't imagine there being [I]enough[/I] things to fill 20+ years of gaming. I have a pretty active imagination, and I guarantee you I couldn't have imagined all the stuff to make even three years of playable game for the world [I]I actually run[/I]. I would have not put the word in all-caps, then, but fair. But "request" or "ask for" seems appropriate, or "challenge" if you wanted to emphasize the "pushing back against a perceived reversal" angle. Well, the whole point of claiming that one's power is absolute is that you [I]don't[/I] have to listen to any questions. That's literally the idea behind the divine right of kings and such. E.g. from Wikipedia: "[B]Absolute monarchy[/B][URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_monarchy#cite_note-1'][1][/URL][URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_monarchy#cite_note-2'][2][/URL] (or [B]absolutism[/B] as doctrine) is a form of [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy']monarchy[/URL] in which the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch']monarch[/URL] holds supreme [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocracy']autocratic[/URL] authority, principally not being restricted by written laws, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislature']legislature[/URL], or customs.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_monarchy#cite_note-Harris2009-3'][3][/URL]" (All emphasis and links in original.) That seems like a pretty cut-and-dried statement that nothing limits the exercise of that authority, hence the mention of "customs" in addition to formal limits like laws and legislatures. In general, it is understood that these rebellions have been proof that absolute power doesn't actually exist in the first place, not that it is given by anyone to anyone. (Because by being given, it can be taken away, and is thus not absolute.) Power that can be so revoked is not absolute. Alright. What happens if the entire group is either (explicitly) ambivalent, or also combat-positive? Are there any valid expectations Bob might have of Alice? Does Alice have any responsibilities to Bob, or the group at large, because of their request? [/QUOTE]
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