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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zelc" data-source="post: 6261317" data-attributes="member: 40496">Talk to your players and come to a consensus on what type of game you'd like to play as a group.  I'd count my self as an optimizer.  I don't optimize because I think of the game as "Characters vs. DM" like some people suggested.  I like to play optimized characters because I want my character to be powerful and/or reliable and because tinkering with and creating powerful characters is part of the fun.  Missing 50% of the time is not awesome.  It's fun to use one ability which makes a second ability more powerful, but I can't rely on that if the first ability only works 50% of the time.Talk to your players and say you're having a tough time challenging them and the game is losing its fun for you.  <a href="http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0" target="_blank">Share this with them</a> and see if you can agree on a tier of character power to play at that would be fun for everyone.  Challenge them to optimize within a tier -- make the best character of that power tier, but don't exceed it (this isn't just using those classes; a Sorcerer is tier 2 but an evocation Sorcerer is probably tier 4, for instance).  They'll probably overshoot by a bit anyway, but now you guys have an agreement on what type of game you want to play together.If they don't agree to do this, then find a more mature gaming group <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.  Well, if you don't want to do that, subtract 2 or 3 from all of the CRs in the book.  Or throw an optimized character back at them.I completely disagree with some of what's been suggested.  Doing this:or this:is IMO the worst things you can do.  These will bring the game into a "Characters vs. DM" mindset and would definitely get me to rage-quit. The first is equivalent to saying "rock falls everyone dies".  I'm sorry, building and playing effective characters is what's fun for me, and now you're taking that away without a discussion?  The second will be found out and your players won't trust you again.</blockquote>

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